Whistlinbill's Collection #6: Khukuri

sirupate · 7th February 2012, 01:49 PM

Hello Atlantia,

Quote:

The full width flat tangs are usually distinctive features of some military types

Indeed so, the Mk2, Mk3 and the post war Wilkinson Sword variation of the Mk3, which according to Robert Wilkinson-Latham is a Mk4.

Be interesting to see what other kukri Bill has lined up for us, by the way we should get together some time, as we in the same part of the World!

Cheers Simon

Atlantia · 9th February 2012, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

we should get together some time, as we in the same part of the World!

Hi Simon,

I can't remember us really talking until our recent 'exchange of views' and to be completely frank, that didn't exactly leave me thinking we should go on a 'date'

Now I'm not saying never, but you're going to have to do a lot more 'flirting' first

Regards
Gene

whistlinbill · 14th February 2012, 12:32 AM

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way!
Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you
show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra
Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during
World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea.
Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from,
best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas
didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper
religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made
kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the
Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product.
Thanks,
Bill

sirupate · 14th February 2012, 08:33 AM

Fabulous bit of information Bill

Atlantia · 14th February 2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlinbill

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way!
Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you
show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra
Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during
World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea.
Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from,
best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas
didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper
religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made
kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the
Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product.
Thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,
You're too kind, we're all just students.
Seems to me from your amazing collection and great first hand accounts that you have a lot to contribute.
I look forward to reading more from you and seeing more of your collection.

Best
Gene

sirupate · 14th February 2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way! Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea. Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from, best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product. Thanks, Bill

Some thoughts I have had on the above quote;
I certainly know that some kukri were produced without the Gorakhnath kaudi, but were they issued to the Gurkhas?
Regarding Windlass I rather thought they were producing the Mk3, and the spec drawings for the Mk3 clearly show the kaudi;

One also wonders how many if any Mk3 were issued to the Gurkhas? as we know the 8th Gurkhas ended up making there own in WW2;
Huxford; “As Government kukri were unobtainable, the Centre (Regimental Centre at Quetta) developed its own kukri industry. A large number of kukri manufacturers and other skilled artisans were imported, and within a few months it was possible to equip all drafts with weapons of the finest design and make. Considering that only available material was scrap, such as springs from derelict motor cars and odds and ends of old metal parts, and that the workshops were covered huts with no facilities for manufacturer, these craftsmen put up a fine effort which astonished visitors.”
I also don't think religious rituals would have had anything to do with it, I have never seen a kami do any religious rituals before making a kukri, no matter whether the kami was Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc
Also regarding the kukri made in Sheffield, I wonder if he is not referring to the post War Wilkinson Sword kukri, which as you can see from the Mk3 specs, is almost identical in profile.

whistlinbill · 15th February 2012, 12:16 AM

Well, the "religious rituals" comment was from Ben Lowe, who was head of
pocket knife production for Joseph Rodgers in 1971, when I spent a fairish amount in Sheffield. He had worked at Joseph Rodgers during World War II.
I feel that Ben didn't know much about Hindu religious rituals (he was an old-time Yorkshireman, through and through) but that was likely the excuse that the Rodgers management had used for not getting the contract.

The drawing you show is, I believe, the same one we sent out with the kukris
we bought off Windlass; there was also a smaller kukri, that had a horn handle
and, they said was worn mostly by officers and on guard duty (in the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army) That kukri is considerably lighter than the
one in this drawing.) The drawing is an exact copy of the original drawing, which was lent to us by Windlass. We also included a copy of the Indian
Govt. specs that Windlass had lent us.

And, incidentally, the steel used in the Mk 3 is a British spec--and it's the same steel used for railroad rails. Sudhir Windlass said that (a number of years ago) for kukri steel, they would buy railroad rails and send them to be rolled out in a rolling mill down in the Punjab.

Regarding the styles made during World War II, by the time I had gotten
to Dehra Dun, Mr. Windlass had cleaned out the offices of all the old paperwork. I would feel sure that whatever he made at that time would
be the regular military spec. He was in business as a military contractor.
As an aside, Mr. Windlass told me that he had been to Dharan many times, but never to Kathmandu, which would cause me to believe that he was delivering kukris to the Gurkhas in Dharan. I wish I'd have asked him.

The Mk 3 is issue to the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army. We bought them from Windlass, and they were a military contract overrun. Sometimes
I think the overrun was a little bigger than the contract! We always thought
the Mk 3's we got from Windlass were "rough", but Windlass said the Indian
Govt. wanted to pay less and wanted less finish. The troops were expected
to clean 'em up.

The Dushera kukri we had was also a military one; it was used for the
Dushera festival, when the strongest guy in the regiment has to cut the
head off a buffalo with one stroke. If it doesn't work, the regiment will
have bad luck for a year (and he'll probably have KP for the same period!)

Windlass made very few of these of these extra large kukris--after all, how many Gurkha regiments would the Indian Army have? And how many of these special kukris would they use? This was an "accommodation order" for the regiments; Sudhir Windlass was tickled that we would order a few dozen now and then--he said we were buying more than the Indian Government did!
Thanks,
Bill

sirupate · 15th February 2012, 10:09 AM

Hi Bill,
I am surprised that kukri manufacture would have been considered in England in WW2 (although for a while it was thought that the M43 might have been made in England), especially with the already high production levels required for the War for the established manufacturers, and of course the cost of kukri production in India was fare less, by the hundreds of workshops out there.

Post Partition, 2nd GR, 6th GR, 7th GR and 10th GR, remained with England, and where the British Gurkhas, the rest retained in India were the Indian Gorkhas. So post partition the term Gurkha was used to refer to the British Gurkha Regiments only. The term 'Gurkha' was first used by Major General Sir David Ochterlony in 1815, the father of the Gurkhas. The term Gurkha/Goorkha etc, was an abbreviation of the Nepalese Goorkhali.

Traditionally in the Gurkhas, the British Officers had the kukri or the khunda made that were used for the festival of Dasain (Nepalese), by the kami of the regiment, they wouldn't buy them from someone like Windlass.
I can't say what the post War Indian Gorkhas did or didn't do. I do know from interviewing Officers of the Gurkhas in the Indian Army, they were quite often still having their own kukri made (ref an interview in 2008).
Below Captain McCalla's kukri (both made by the regimental armourer/kami; the top one was his fighting kukri he used in Burma during WW2, the bottom one was made for the Dasain festival, and used by the Regiment;

Below another one given to me, also WW2 armourer made, which was beautifully balanced, above it for size comparison is an 8th GR kukri WW2;

All the best Simon

14th February 2012, 12:32 AM	#3
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way! Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea. Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from, best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product. Thanks, Bill

14th February 2012, 08:33 AM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Fabulous bit of information Bill

15th February 2012, 12:16 AM	#7
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Well, the "religious rituals" comment was from Ben Lowe, who was head of pocket knife production for Joseph Rodgers in 1971, when I spent a fairish amount in Sheffield. He had worked at Joseph Rodgers during World War II. I feel that Ben didn't know much about Hindu religious rituals (he was an old-time Yorkshireman, through and through) but that was likely the excuse that the Rodgers management had used for not getting the contract. The drawing you show is, I believe, the same one we sent out with the kukris we bought off Windlass; there was also a smaller kukri, that had a horn handle and, they said was worn mostly by officers and on guard duty (in the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army) That kukri is considerably lighter than the one in this drawing.) The drawing is an exact copy of the original drawing, which was lent to us by Windlass. We also included a copy of the Indian Govt. specs that Windlass had lent us. And, incidentally, the steel used in the Mk 3 is a British spec--and it's the same steel used for railroad rails. Sudhir Windlass said that (a number of years ago) for kukri steel, they would buy railroad rails and send them to be rolled out in a rolling mill down in the Punjab. Regarding the styles made during World War II, by the time I had gotten to Dehra Dun, Mr. Windlass had cleaned out the offices of all the old paperwork. I would feel sure that whatever he made at that time would be the regular military spec. He was in business as a military contractor. As an aside, Mr. Windlass told me that he had been to Dharan many times, but never to Kathmandu, which would cause me to believe that he was delivering kukris to the Gurkhas in Dharan. I wish I'd have asked him. The Mk 3 is issue to the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army. We bought them from Windlass, and they were a military contract overrun. Sometimes I think the overrun was a little bigger than the contract! We always thought the Mk 3's we got from Windlass were "rough", but Windlass said the Indian Govt. wanted to pay less and wanted less finish. The troops were expected to clean 'em up. The Dushera kukri we had was also a military one; it was used for the Dushera festival, when the strongest guy in the regiment has to cut the head off a buffalo with one stroke. If it doesn't work, the regiment will have bad luck for a year (and he'll probably have KP for the same period!) Windlass made very few of these of these extra large kukris--after all, how many Gurkha regiments would the Indian Army have? And how many of these special kukris would they use? This was an "accommodation order" for the regiments; Sudhir Windlass was tickled that we would order a few dozen now and then--he said we were buying more than the Indian Government did! Thanks, Bill

15th February 2012, 10:09 AM	#8
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Bill, I am surprised that kukri manufacture would have been considered in England in WW2 (although for a while it was thought that the M43 might have been made in England), especially with the already high production levels required for the War for the established manufacturers, and of course the cost of kukri production in India was fare less, by the hundreds of workshops out there. Post Partition, 2nd GR, 6th GR, 7th GR and 10th GR, remained with England, and where the British Gurkhas, the rest retained in India were the Indian Gorkhas. So post partition the term Gurkha was used to refer to the British Gurkha Regiments only. The term 'Gurkha' was first used by Major General Sir David Ochterlony in 1815, the father of the Gurkhas. The term Gurkha/Goorkha etc, was an abbreviation of the Nepalese Goorkhali. Traditionally in the Gurkhas, the British Officers had the kukri or the khunda made that were used for the festival of Dasain (Nepalese), by the kami of the regiment, they wouldn't buy them from someone like Windlass. I can't say what the post War Indian Gorkhas did or didn't do. I do know from interviewing Officers of the Gurkhas in the Indian Army, they were quite often still having their own kukri made (ref an interview in 2008). Below Captain McCalla's kukri (both made by the regimental armourer/kami; the top one was his fighting kukri he used in Burma during WW2, the bottom one was made for the Dasain festival, and used by the Regiment; Below another one given to me, also WW2 armourer made, which was beautifully balanced, above it for size comparison is an 8th GR kukri WW2; All the best Simon