A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

fernando · 26th December 2004, 07:42 PM

Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608.
Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

Mark · 27th December 2004, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608.
Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

Yes, I believe Filipe Nicote is the one I am remembering.

Gavin Nugent · 17th February 2017, 12:46 AM

A shame that other than being briefly published, that this sword and swords of the type did not develop further in discussion.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm

The subject of the "Story Dah", as far as I am aware, has not been ventured in to in detail. I note Mark had added a little more insight and detailed images here;
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
It is my hope that Mark might chime in and offer some further first hand insight to this sword.

Personally, I think this sword dates post 1858, supported by the many and various Burmese silver collections held in Museums around the world.
It was the British Raj period that bolstered this fine age old craft, the period being 1875-1945, although, I understand that the 1860's saw the initial rise in export silver.

A point that I do not think Mark photographed, is what I think is a face from which the upper suspension loop protrudes from the mouth of.
If I am correct in my suspicions, based on others of the type known to me, this is the same face seen on the pommel, a face that I suspect is Hanuman... even the goodies had teeth and tusks...

I do not mean to be disparaging in my visual assessment of this sword, and for learning and discussion purposes, and that it is only my personal belief based on the examples I know, that the hilt on the example pictured is a later replacement... exactly how later I do not know, but I suspect post WWII. The level of carving is in my honest opinion, not consistent with known ivory carving found on these sword types or comparable carved ivories from Burma during this period. the method and quality of the craft which binds the antler is also questionable, I get an almost Laos or Thai flavour from it.

In the description Mark provided in his further research of the sword, he notes the panel on which 1798 is found on an added panel whilst the blade dates to 1919, a quandary indeed. On one example known to me, it has the English Royal coat of arms in repousse for this panel. Possibly this sword had it too, removed to fit this addition?

Of the blade type, it is a quality blade and considered by myself and others as a mid 19th century type through to the 1920/30's. I find from this point on wards that the blades decrease in size and quality as does the dress, finally to a point from the 1950's on wards where these swords became just a shadow of their predecessors with poor quality blades of roughly the same form and very lazy and poor quality repousse in pot metal. One such 1950's pair of swords known to me were purchased during an officers stay in the Kachin regions of Burma...whether this became a point of sale area or a manufacture area of the later types, I am unsure.

There are many online reference points for old Burmese silver, various combinations of word searches will present a wealth of information.

All for now.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2017, 01:12 AM

Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years

and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed.
I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .

Ian · 17th February 2017, 02:54 AM

Gavin:

Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai.

I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know.

I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here.

Ian.

Ian · 19th February 2017, 06:41 PM

Gavin:

I'm having trouble locating the one I mentioned. But I did find the attached picture online (Pinterest) with a caption saying it was dated 1931. The scabbard has a similar segmented silver treatment, with various Buddhist icons and symbols, much like Mark's dha. I view this style of repoussed silver work as Lao. Would you agree? Also, the blade on this one looks fairly good and the silver work is good but not great. Do you think the blade might predate the inscription by a few decades?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

Gavin Nugent · 20th February 2017, 01:35 AM

Hi Ian,

As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye.

The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts?
A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs.

With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice.
An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making?

Gavin

17th February 2017, 12:46 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A shame that other than being briefly published, that this sword and swords of the type did not develop further in discussion. http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm The subject of the "Story Dah", as far as I am aware, has not been ventured in to in detail. I note Mark had added a little more insight and detailed images here; http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm It is my hope that Mark might chime in and offer some further first hand insight to this sword. Personally, I think this sword dates post 1858, supported by the many and various Burmese silver collections held in Museums around the world. It was the British Raj period that bolstered this fine age old craft, the period being 1875-1945, although, I understand that the 1860's saw the initial rise in export silver. A point that I do not think Mark photographed, is what I think is a face from which the upper suspension loop protrudes from the mouth of. If I am correct in my suspicions, based on others of the type known to me, this is the same face seen on the pommel, a face that I suspect is Hanuman... even the goodies had teeth and tusks... I do not mean to be disparaging in my visual assessment of this sword, and for learning and discussion purposes, and that it is only my personal belief based on the examples I know, that the hilt on the example pictured is a later replacement... exactly how later I do not know, but I suspect post WWII. The level of carving is in my honest opinion, not consistent with known ivory carving found on these sword types or comparable carved ivories from Burma during this period. the method and quality of the craft which binds the antler is also questionable, I get an almost Laos or Thai flavour from it. In the description Mark provided in his further research of the sword, he notes the panel on which 1798 is found on an added panel whilst the blade dates to 1919, a quandary indeed. On one example known to me, it has the English Royal coat of arms in repousse for this panel. Possibly this sword had it too, removed to fit this addition? Of the blade type, it is a quality blade and considered by myself and others as a mid 19th century type through to the 1920/30's. I find from this point on wards that the blades decrease in size and quality as does the dress, finally to a point from the 1950's on wards where these swords became just a shadow of their predecessors with poor quality blades of roughly the same form and very lazy and poor quality repousse in pot metal. One such 1950's pair of swords known to me were purchased during an officers stay in the Kachin regions of Burma...whether this became a point of sale area or a manufacture area of the later types, I am unsure. There are many online reference points for old Burmese silver, various combinations of word searches will present a wealth of information. All for now. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 17th February 2017 at 01:09 AM.

17th February 2017, 02:54 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Gavin: Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai. I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know. I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th February 2017 at 05:02 AM.

19th February 2017, 06:41 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Gavin: I'm having trouble locating the one I mentioned. But I did find the attached picture online (Pinterest) with a caption saying it was dated 1931. The scabbard has a similar segmented silver treatment, with various Buddhist icons and symbols, much like Mark's dha. I view this style of repoussed silver work as Lao. Would you agree? Also, the blade on this one looks fairly good and the silver work is good but not great. Do you think the blade might predate the inscription by a few decades? Appreciate your thoughts. Ian. Attached Images

20th February 2017, 01:35 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Ian, As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye. The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts? A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs. With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice. An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making? Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 20th February 2017 at 01:50 AM.

26th December 2004, 07:42 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608. Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

17th February 2017, 01:12 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed. I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .