Weird Philippine sword/bolo

Sajen · 6th February 2012, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I need to double check but I believe it is from Batangas region. Same family as the minisbad.

Thank you Jose for the first information!

Have checked some older threads by searchword minisbad/minasbad and have seen that the hilt and scabbard style is very similar so that Bicol as origin seems nearby. But I haven't seen one with a similar blade shape.

Now I am very very curious to get more informations about my new toy!

Regards,

Detlef

ThePepperSkull · 6th February 2012, 03:03 AM

You've got a recently made Bicolano blade. Quality of these made today are about the same except that they now shellac the wood scabbards and the grind marks on the blades are more obvious/apparent on newer ones. I'm guessing yours is recent but not as recent as this, as in post WWII, but pre 1970's. Like Jose said, made in the same region as the Minasbad, but lacks the trademark shape and d-guard to be an actual Minasbad.

Older pieces have iron fittings instead of brass and the carvings are much smoother/rounder rather than angular.

Interesting to note about this piece -- Bicol is located in the southern region of Luzon, almost the Visayas, so blades from this area have an amalgam of features from both regions. The figural hilts and blade shapes typically seen in Visayan blades are a feature used on many Bicolano blades, whereas the blade geometry is more similar to Luzon, in its double-beveled "lenticular" shape rather than the visayan single bevel.

Sajen · 6th February 2012, 04:32 PM

Hello Dave,

the seller told me that it is a bring-back from WWII but will contact him to get further informations.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 6th February 2012, 04:51 PM

And here a picture from the back of the sheath where is visible that the fittings are from iron.

danny1976 · 6th February 2012, 07:09 PM

Hi Detlef ,

I don,t know noting about these swords but i realy like the blade form !!

Battara · 6th February 2012, 07:49 PM

Thanks for the correction Pepperskull - I meant Bicol not Batangas (sleeping again at the 'puter

).

Dimasalang · 6th February 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

You've got a recently made Bicolano blade. Quality of these made today are about the same except that they now shellac the wood scabbards and the grind marks on the blades are more obvious/apparent on newer ones. I'm guessing yours is recent but not as recent as this, as in post WWII, but pre 1970's. Like Jose said, made in the same region as the Minasbad, but lacks the trademark shape and d-guard to be an actual Minasbad.

Older pieces have iron fittings instead of brass and the carvings are much smoother/rounder rather than angular.

Interesting to note about this piece -- Bicol is located in the southern region of Luzon, almost the Visayas, so blades from this area have an amalgam of features from both regions. The figural hilts and blade shapes typically seen in Visayan blades are a feature used on many Bicolano blades, whereas the blade geometry is more similar to Luzon, in its double-beveled "lenticular" shape rather than the visayan single bevel.

Don't the recent ones have "Philippines" stamped in the blades? Or the scabbard saying Philippines with some special inlays. I see a lot of recent, even WWII blades this way.

But I don't know.

Sajen · 7th February 2012, 04:29 PM

After some research in old threads I come across a picture posted from Zelbone in April 2006. The swords are labeled as Batangas Bolos. These two swords are very very similar in all parts, blade, handle and sheath.
So I hope that Zel see this thread and will be able to tell me/us more to the origin and estimated age.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 7th February 2012, 10:41 PM

Zel is no more a part of this forum (unfortunately) and I think later research said these were from Bicol. Need to double check with Lorenz.

Sajen · 8th February 2012, 09:42 AM

Jose is correct, it is a bolo from Bicol.

Yesterday I have had contact with Zel by email and this is what he write me:

As for your bolo, it's from Bicol...most likely the Rinconada area. As for age, it looks more modern...WWII and later.

And furthermore:

The type you have is I believed called a sinampalok....I don't have my notes with me right now. Sinampalok is term also used elsewhere in Luzon, but I've heard referred to this blade type in Bicol. I wouldn't get too hung up with the exact name of the blade type. There are hundreds of different blade types in the Philippines and the same blade can have different names even in the same region. What's important is that it's from Bicol...but it's not a minasbad.

When you read this, thank you again Zel!

But it will still be very intersting what Lorenz can tell us/me about this bolo.

Regards,

Detlef

migueldiaz · 8th February 2012, 02:15 PM

Sajen/ Battara, I agree with Zel - the sword is from the Bicol region of Luzon.

As to its name, I'm still figuring it out. In Marcos de Lisboa's [MDL] 1754 Spanish-Bicol dictionary, as cited in Mintz, we see these archaic Bicol terms for the Bicolanos' common swords:

báˈid - (typ‑ knife, short, wide); MANG‑, PANG‑‑ON to cut s/t with a cutlass; MANG‑, PANG‑‑AN to cut s/t off from s/t with a cutlass [MDL]

salabay - cutlass, used only in narratives and verse in place of báˈid (Note: salabay is listed only as part of the entry for báˈid and is not a separate entry in Lisboa) [MDL]

káris - sword; MAG‑ to carry a sword; to duel; to fight with swords (two people); MA‑, ‑ON or MAG‑, PAG‑‑ON to wound s/o with a sword; to arm o/s with a sword; MA‑, ‑AN or MAG‑, PAG‑‑AN to arm s/o with a sword [MALAY keris] [MDL]

sundáng - bolo, machete [MDL: a knife (general term); any instrument used for cutting; suró-sundáng small knife or one made from wood or bamboo]

tabák - bolo, machete [MDL: knife (typ‑, also used as a weapon)]

Am just guessing but if we are to speculate, it looks like baid fits the bill most closely -- short and wide knife.

Thanks btw for posting the pics!

Lorenz

PS - The above was quoted from here.

6th February 2012, 04:51 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	And here a picture from the back of the sheath where is visible that the fittings are from iron. Attached Images

7th February 2012, 04:29 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	After some research in old threads I come across a picture posted from Zelbone in April 2006. The swords are labeled as Batangas Bolos. These two swords are very very similar in all parts, blade, handle and sheath. So I hope that Zel see this thread and will be able to tell me/us more to the origin and estimated age. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th February 2012, 03:03 AM	#2
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	You've got a recently made Bicolano blade. Quality of these made today are about the same except that they now shellac the wood scabbards and the grind marks on the blades are more obvious/apparent on newer ones. I'm guessing yours is recent but not as recent as this, as in post WWII, but pre 1970's. Like Jose said, made in the same region as the Minasbad, but lacks the trademark shape and d-guard to be an actual Minasbad. Older pieces have iron fittings instead of brass and the carvings are much smoother/rounder rather than angular. Interesting to note about this piece -- Bicol is located in the southern region of Luzon, almost the Visayas, so blades from this area have an amalgam of features from both regions. The figural hilts and blade shapes typically seen in Visayan blades are a feature used on many Bicolano blades, whereas the blade geometry is more similar to Luzon, in its double-beveled "lenticular" shape rather than the visayan single bevel.

6th February 2012, 04:32 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Dave, the seller told me that it is a bring-back from WWII but will contact him to get further informations. Regards, Detlef

6th February 2012, 07:09 PM	#5
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Detlef , I don,t know noting about these swords but i realy like the blade form !!

6th February 2012, 07:49 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thanks for the correction Pepperskull - I meant Bicol not Batangas (sleeping again at the 'puter ).

7th February 2012, 10:41 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Zel is no more a part of this forum (unfortunately) and I think later research said these were from Bicol. Need to double check with Lorenz.

8th February 2012, 09:42 AM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Jose is correct, it is a bolo from Bicol. Yesterday I have had contact with Zel by email and this is what he write me: As for your bolo, it's from Bicol...most likely the Rinconada area. As for age, it looks more modern...WWII and later. And furthermore: The type you have is I believed called a sinampalok....I don't have my notes with me right now. Sinampalok is term also used elsewhere in Luzon, but I've heard referred to this blade type in Bicol. I wouldn't get too hung up with the exact name of the blade type. There are hundreds of different blade types in the Philippines and the same blade can have different names even in the same region. What's important is that it's from Bicol...but it's not a minasbad. When you read this, thank you again Zel! But it will still be very intersting what Lorenz can tell us/me about this bolo. Regards, Detlef

8th February 2012, 02:15 PM	#11
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Sajen/ Battara, I agree with Zel - the sword is from the Bicol region of Luzon. As to its name, I'm still figuring it out. In Marcos de Lisboa's [MDL] 1754 Spanish-Bicol dictionary, as cited in Mintz, we see these archaic Bicol terms for the Bicolanos' common swords: báˈid - (typ‑ knife, short, wide); MANG‑, PANG‑‑ON to cut s/t with a cutlass; MANG‑, PANG‑‑AN to cut s/t off from s/t with a cutlass [MDL] salabay - cutlass, used only in narratives and verse in place of báˈid (Note: salabay is listed only as part of the entry for báˈid and is not a separate entry in Lisboa) [MDL] káris - sword; MAG‑ to carry a sword; to duel; to fight with swords (two people); MA‑, ‑ON or MAG‑, PAG‑‑ON to wound s/o with a sword; to arm o/s with a sword; MA‑, ‑AN or MAG‑, PAG‑‑AN to arm s/o with a sword [MALAY keris] [MDL] sundáng - bolo, machete [MDL: a knife (general term); any instrument used for cutting; suró-sundáng small knife or one made from wood or bamboo] tabák - bolo, machete [MDL: knife (typ‑, also used as a weapon)] Am just guessing but if we are to speculate, it looks like baid fits the bill most closely -- short and wide knife. Thanks btw for posting the pics! Lorenz PS - The above was quoted from here.