Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[David]

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

"... Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that I have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

[David]

Originally Posted by fspic

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

Well this is not something i would personally consider. If a blade warrants restoration and can actually be restored (i am not sure there was ever really a shot with this one) then i will either attempt it or not. I see no purpose in restoring half a blade. If restoration cannot be done without damaging the blade then it is not restoration is it, and i see no purpose in damaging a blade in order to make it shinier or prettier for display purposes. As for historical value the trouble is that unless you were there, have undeniable provenance or have a time machine it's impossible to tell exactly what the historical importance is of any blade. Maybe it killed many of the original owners enemies. Maybe it was never even drawn from it's sheath for that purpose. And for me even the personal history of a lowly warrior of seemingly little consequence is "important" in my eye. It doesn't matter if it's actions started revolutions or merely fought in insignificant battles that led to nothing. History is history is history and everyone's part in it collectively is what has led to our present.
We all collect for different reasons and all of them are valid. Some swords can be eye candy for proud display, but it it not what directs me to collect them.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

This is uncalled for .

Not any longer.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by David

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Sorry I suspect this LIKE symbol may get annoying, but, I couldn't have stated my sentiments better than David did. We will see how this turns out. Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff

Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff

[David]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...

Salaams David~ Fair enough except that in their "as found" (excavated condition) they were being devoured by active rust. By expertly removing the salt and deactivating the rust and giving the tannin a shot i think it is salvageable and worth then rebuilding the hilt around. I can't see another alternative. It is difficult to take the rust off a little bit...

Less is more we all know that but this is a basket case scenario... You either give it a go or its smeared in grease and left.. no one likes to do that especially when theres a chance to rebuild a hilt around a salvaged blade... I say give it a good try; lets see the final result but don't expect miracles in the blade area.
Meanwhile and perhaps more importantly our library of "restoration knowledge" is being added to...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David~ Fair enough except that in their "as found" (excavated condition) they were being devoured by active rust. By expertly removing the salt and deactivating the rust and giving the tannin a shot i think it is salvageable and worth then rebuilding the hilt around. I can't see another alternative. It is difficult to take the rust off a little bit...

Less is more we all know that but this is a basket case scenario... You either give it a go or its smeared in grease and left.. no one likes to do that especially when theres a chance to rebuild a hilt around a salvaged blade... I say give it a good try; lets see the final result but don't expect miracles in the blade area.
Meanwhile and perhaps more importantly our library of "restoration knowledge" is being added to...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahim, i would love for you to point out where exactly i ever stated that it was a bad idea to stabilize the rust so that no further deterioration could take place. I agree with the "less is more" approach in these particular cases, but i never stated that one should do nothing at all. I will maintain however that it is never a good idea to go at a blade with steel brushes on a power tool. When i look at the before and after on this particular blade i can clearly see additional loss along the edge near the tip of the blade, damage which was not there before the restoration began.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

GREAT THREAD !!!

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

...
P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

scabbard mounts in progress:

before (too much rusted)

[Evgeny_K]

after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):

Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I have to say that this is pioneering work !

Considering the state the items were in when you started I think that is an excellent result. I hope the rest of the restoration goes as well. Most museums wouldn't touch this because understandably the sword was on its last legs... Most of us would have given this sword the wax protection and left it at that... Perhaps we have here a viable resusitation technique on what many would have said was a lost cause... This is highly specialised work. Best of luck Evgeny_K. Very impressive..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I have to say that this is pioneering work !

Considering the state the items were in when you started I think that is an excellent result. I hope the rest of the restoration goes as well. Most museums wouldn't touch this because understandably the sword was on its last legs... Most of us would have given this sword the wax protection and left it at that... Perhaps we have here a viable resusitation technique on what many would have said was a lost cause... This is highly specialised work. Best of luck Evgeny_K. Very impressive..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you, Ibrahiim!
It's not my merit
I've asked to help me a person who is engaged in this kind of restoration.



Here is another example of his work (excavated rifle flint lock):




before: