Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 01:11 PM

If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting-

Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast!

You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said (

), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight.

M ELEY · 26th January 2012, 03:14 PM

Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2012, 03:04 PM

Salaams all,
I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 28th January 2012, 03:51 PM

Hi Mark,
I have been observing this most interesting thread, but i confess i fail to figure out what is the nuclear question, that is, i wonder why does it constitute a doubt whether or not cup hilt swords have been present in naval warfare.
Is it because you assume that, at such early period, sword styles were so selective that one or another was not fit to go aboard ?
I understand that, reading the period chronicles, is hard to find an author specifying whether the hero was using this or that sword style, letting his worries contemplate the use of weapons in a generic manner.
I was paging ASIA by João de Barros, narrating the Portuguese discoveries and their consequent encounters and battles, in this case by the 1500's. He often mentions the varied type of weapons used in the context, lances being the most often quoted weapon, as even such term being used to describe the number of men (rank) assigned to a mission ... like sending noble Dom John Doe ashore with 'X' lances to an exploit or a combat.
Then comes the crossbow, a strong resource embarked in military fleets. Halberds and 'montantes' (two hand swords) come next; i didn't read it this time, but i would have learned that such 'sophisticated' weapons were mainly used by trained nobles, namely the two handed sword, as they were in principle the ones that faced the combat front, the infants coming after.
The sword is mentioned in specific moments, like in a personal fight, a captain's challenge or an execution, or a ceremony. But obviously this was the weapon to have at hand, hanging from the waist as an alternative to the polearm or great sword failure or its uneffectiveness in restricted areas.
During the, say, three centuries of navigation, many types of swords were used, the cup hilt surely having its place aboard, as in firm land, in the late part of the period, that would be, from the XVII to the early XIX century (Napoleonic era), at this late stage with smaller bowls (cups) and even made of brass. The diminishing of the cup (bowl) dimensions was in purpose to reduce its discomfort when hanging from the waist/belt, specially when used by footmen. I believe this constraint gave larger space for the use of the terçado (hanger).
But being assured that cup hilt swords were largely used in the colonies, one can not exclude that they were hanging from embarked military forces belts.
Attached we can see a few sword styles that came across those years.
I am sorry if this ‘draught’ is not (even) close to the topic.

.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2012, 10:30 PM

Great entry Nando, and excellent illustrations!
Actually for me I must confess I often wonder why more collectors/enthusiasts/ historians DONT ask these kinds of questions! and one of the things I truly admire about Mark is that he consistantly does! yay!

I have always been amazed at historic accounts and narratives with accurate details on uniforms being worn, and artillery, guns even down often to calibers etc. but when it comes to a sword mentioned it is either straight or curved. Then there are the misnomers like referring to a large straight backsword as a 'broadsword'; any hanger used aboard a ship becomes a 'cutlass'; and any heavy sheet or metal guard becomes a 'cuphilt. Then there are the flowery adventure or romance narratives using the much fabled 'scimitar' for any sabre used in oriental parlance.

The purpose of this discussion is mostly fact finding in trying to help us navigate through the treacherous waters of romanticized and artistic licence in much of the literature involving weapons used at sea. I always enjoyed for example the wonderful pirate illustrations of Pyle and Wyeth in which much of the appararel is fairly accurate, as are ships details and in some degree most of the firearms.....however, there is one illustration I can think of (of course being set in the period of the 'golden age' end 17th into 18th) where a bandana wearing pirare is brandishing a gleaming 'cup hilt' cutlass. The weapon portrayed is unfortunately a Civil War period brass sheet metal cutlass used by both Union and Confederate forces thus a century and a half later in period.

Likely there are many (too many) who would say, why does it matter? I suppose in the sense of the general effect of the painting of couse it really doesnt, but for many of us who take history extremely seriously...it would be tantamount to Napoleon arriving at Waterloo in a '57 Chevy

I think what Mark is trying to determine is not whether one weapon was more fit than another to be brought aboard a ship....I think we have all agreed that in many, if not most cases, virtually most types of edged weapons were likely aboard vessels at some point or another. Setting aside the obvious instance of captured, trophy or souvenier items we are wondering whether there was a propensity toward a certain type...in this case the cuphilt....being carried aboard vessels, in this case of course Spanish.

Much in the same way English officers carried usually all manner of court, dress and 'hunting' swords or hangers.....the Spanish officers I feel certain wore rapiers of varying types, the most favored by this time in the 17th century being the cuphilt. The precedent for rapiers worn aboard ship by officers was already established much earlier of course, and the one instance I can think of with at least part of a sword was the rapier from the Atocha (1622) which I believe was the work of Alonzo Perez.

Ibrahiim, thank you for joining us on this exploration! Excellent notes on the use of cutlasses by boarding parties and those disc hilt cutlasses were sturdy examples of a type favored from early 19th century well unto it. These types of sheet metal guards were in use I believe in France and Europe even earlier. The shellguard forms of these stout short bladed sabres were in use throughout Europe on both land and sea from late 16th century onward and well suited for seaboard use.
The obvious purpose and goal was to protect the hand which in close quarters combat was ever vulnerable, not only to further enable continued fighting, but for completion of important shipboard functions if hopefully enabled after the events.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 29th January 2012, 06:08 AM

Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be"

. I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use.

Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread.

Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service.

Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

fernando · 12th February 2012, 03:12 PM

Hi Captain,
I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand.
Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt.
However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire.

.

24th January 2012, 01:11 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting- Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast! You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said ( ), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight. Last edited by M ELEY; 24th January 2012 at 01:21 PM.

28th January 2012, 03:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, I have been observing this most interesting thread, but i confess i fail to figure out what is the nuclear question, that is, i wonder why does it constitute a doubt whether or not cup hilt swords have been present in naval warfare. Is it because you assume that, at such early period, sword styles were so selective that one or another was not fit to go aboard ? I understand that, reading the period chronicles, is hard to find an author specifying whether the hero was using this or that sword style, letting his worries contemplate the use of weapons in a generic manner. I was paging ASIA by João de Barros, narrating the Portuguese discoveries and their consequent encounters and battles, in this case by the 1500's. He often mentions the varied type of weapons used in the context, lances being the most often quoted weapon, as even such term being used to describe the number of men (rank) assigned to a mission ... like sending noble Dom John Doe ashore with 'X' lances to an exploit or a combat. Then comes the crossbow, a strong resource embarked in military fleets. Halberds and 'montantes' (two hand swords) come next; i didn't read it this time, but i would have learned that such 'sophisticated' weapons were mainly used by trained nobles, namely the two handed sword, as they were in principle the ones that faced the combat front, the infants coming after. The sword is mentioned in specific moments, like in a personal fight, a captain's challenge or an execution, or a ceremony. But obviously this was the weapon to have at hand, hanging from the waist as an alternative to the polearm or great sword failure or its uneffectiveness in restricted areas. During the, say, three centuries of navigation, many types of swords were used, the cup hilt surely having its place aboard, as in firm land, in the late part of the period, that would be, from the XVII to the early XIX century (Napoleonic era), at this late stage with smaller bowls (cups) and even made of brass. The diminishing of the cup (bowl) dimensions was in purpose to reduce its discomfort when hanging from the waist/belt, specially when used by footmen. I believe this constraint gave larger space for the use of the terçado (hanger). But being assured that cup hilt swords were largely used in the colonies, one can not exclude that they were hanging from embarked military forces belts. Attached we can see a few sword styles that came across those years. I am sorry if this ‘draught’ is not (even) close to the topic. . Attached Images

12th February 2012, 03:12 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Captain, I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand. Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt. However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire. . Attached Images

26th January 2012, 03:14 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

27th January 2012, 03:04 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all, I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

28th January 2012, 10:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Great entry Nando, and excellent illustrations! Actually for me I must confess I often wonder why more collectors/enthusiasts/ historians DONT ask these kinds of questions! and one of the things I truly admire about Mark is that he consistantly does! yay! I have always been amazed at historic accounts and narratives with accurate details on uniforms being worn, and artillery, guns even down often to calibers etc. but when it comes to a sword mentioned it is either straight or curved. Then there are the misnomers like referring to a large straight backsword as a 'broadsword'; any hanger used aboard a ship becomes a 'cutlass'; and any heavy sheet or metal guard becomes a 'cuphilt. Then there are the flowery adventure or romance narratives using the much fabled 'scimitar' for any sabre used in oriental parlance. The purpose of this discussion is mostly fact finding in trying to help us navigate through the treacherous waters of romanticized and artistic licence in much of the literature involving weapons used at sea. I always enjoyed for example the wonderful pirate illustrations of Pyle and Wyeth in which much of the appararel is fairly accurate, as are ships details and in some degree most of the firearms.....however, there is one illustration I can think of (of course being set in the period of the 'golden age' end 17th into 18th) where a bandana wearing pirare is brandishing a gleaming 'cup hilt' cutlass. The weapon portrayed is unfortunately a Civil War period brass sheet metal cutlass used by both Union and Confederate forces thus a century and a half later in period. Likely there are many (too many) who would say, why does it matter? I suppose in the sense of the general effect of the painting of couse it really doesnt, but for many of us who take history extremely seriously...it would be tantamount to Napoleon arriving at Waterloo in a '57 Chevy I think what Mark is trying to determine is not whether one weapon was more fit than another to be brought aboard a ship....I think we have all agreed that in many, if not most cases, virtually most types of edged weapons were likely aboard vessels at some point or another. Setting aside the obvious instance of captured, trophy or souvenier items we are wondering whether there was a propensity toward a certain type...in this case the cuphilt....being carried aboard vessels, in this case of course Spanish. Much in the same way English officers carried usually all manner of court, dress and 'hunting' swords or hangers.....the Spanish officers I feel certain wore rapiers of varying types, the most favored by this time in the 17th century being the cuphilt. The precedent for rapiers worn aboard ship by officers was already established much earlier of course, and the one instance I can think of with at least part of a sword was the rapier from the Atocha (1622) which I believe was the work of Alonzo Perez. Ibrahiim, thank you for joining us on this exploration! Excellent notes on the use of cutlasses by boarding parties and those disc hilt cutlasses were sturdy examples of a type favored from early 19th century well unto it. These types of sheet metal guards were in use I believe in France and Europe even earlier. The shellguard forms of these stout short bladed sabres were in use throughout Europe on both land and sea from late 16th century onward and well suited for seaboard use. The obvious purpose and goal was to protect the hand which in close quarters combat was ever vulnerable, not only to further enable continued fighting, but for completion of important shipboard functions if hopefully enabled after the events. All the best, Jim

29th January 2012, 06:08 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be" . I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use. Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread. Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service. Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??