2 Victorian Lances

katana · 21st January 2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette

I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!"

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
yes I remembered you had one

....also, wasn't there something about a tulwar, a ceiling fan and a lot of Drambuie

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 06:22 PM

JUDL!!!
Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story

Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me

I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile.

Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings.
The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times.

In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event.
They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War.

While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances.

All the best,
Jim

broadaxe · 21st January 2012, 10:31 PM

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

Absolutely fantastic photos and info!!! Thank you for adding these, which add perfect dimension to our discussion on these

All the best,
Jim

katana · 23rd January 2012, 03:55 PM

Hi Broadaxe

,
thanks for the great images and info.

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

As most of the armoury markings etc are quite rubbed ...I will have to try and decipher those that are legible. I do not think the T.P is a badly struck I.P (India Pattern) however, if this is the case...I have read that consignments of British manufactured lances were sent to India for the use of the British Units, that seem to have been later marked I.P . (The 'standard' Indian Pattern butt has a larger ball/doughnut that is different to the British )

The male bamboo shaft was also considered superior to the Ash shafts ....and Ash was only used with the 1868 pattern if there was a shortage of suitable bamboo.

So its out with the magnifying glass.....

Regards David

katana · 24th January 2012, 09:19 PM

As best as I can make out, the markings on the lances are..

LANCE 1

SHAFT

E (approx 5mm high)

crown
75
E

crown
71
E

BUTT

crown
06
E

crown
K (?)

05 (approx 5mm) 90 (approx 5mm)

4 (perhaps size number)

POINT

T.P. (approx 5mm )

'3'

crown
71
E

crown (possibly, badly rubbed)
14

LANCE 2

SHAFT

crown
75
E

crown
73
E

17 (17th Lancers ??)

BUTT too much patination to see any markings

POINT

T.P.

??? ' 27

??? could be SRN or SQN

Any suggestions as to the possible meanings of some of the markings gratefully received.....as is any other comments or information

Kind Regards David

katana · 8th February 2012, 03:16 PM

I recently contact the Lancer Museum requesting information on the various markings and they have kindly replied

"....... Thank you for your email. It seems to us that the '17' is a Regimental mark and would refer to the 17th Lancers. The small letters could be SQN and
refer to Squadron. '05' & '90' could be dates when repairs were undertaken.
'T.P.' could be TP for Troop and would be with a letter such as 'A' or 'B',
etc. ....."

Link to 17th Lancers ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Lancers

It would seem that these Lances may have seen / been at several historical battles

Best
David

Dmitry · 21st October 2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

My guess is that they were deployed against poorly-armed and poorly-trained opponents for a reason. Why waste expensive ammunition and wear and tear of the firearms, when a lancer can pick as many running natives as he wishes?

I just bought a lot of three lances myself, haven't looked at them properly yet. This is a a useful thread.

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2017, 12:10 AM

This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up!
Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves.

Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound.
However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had.

In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle.

It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922.
Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion.

In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.

21st January 2012, 10:31 PM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917. Attached Images

23rd January 2012, 03:55 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Broadaxe , thanks for the great images and info. It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ... The 5th Royal Irish The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal ) The 17th The 21st All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India. As most of the armoury markings etc are quite rubbed ...I will have to try and decipher those that are legible. I do not think the T.P is a badly struck I.P (India Pattern) however, if this is the case...I have read that consignments of British manufactured lances were sent to India for the use of the British Units, that seem to have been later marked I.P . (The 'standard' Indian Pattern butt has a larger ball/doughnut that is different to the British ) The male bamboo shaft was also considered superior to the Ash shafts ....and Ash was only used with the 1868 pattern if there was a shortage of suitable bamboo. So its out with the magnifying glass..... Regards David Attached Images

21st January 2012, 06:22 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	JUDL!!! Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile. Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings. The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times. In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event. They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War. While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances. All the best, Jim

24th January 2012, 09:19 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	As best as I can make out, the markings on the lances are.. LANCE 1 SHAFT E (approx 5mm high) crown 75 E crown 71 E BUTT crown 06 E crown K (?) 05 (approx 5mm) 90 (approx 5mm) 4 (perhaps size number) POINT T.P. (approx 5mm ) '3' crown 71 E crown (possibly, badly rubbed) 14 LANCE 2 SHAFT crown 75 E crown 73 E 17 (17th Lancers ??) BUTT too much patination to see any markings POINT T.P. ??? ' 27 ??? could be SRN or SQN Any suggestions as to the possible meanings of some of the markings gratefully received.....as is any other comments or information Kind Regards David

8th February 2012, 03:16 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I recently contact the Lancer Museum requesting information on the various markings and they have kindly replied "....... Thank you for your email. It seems to us that the '17' is a Regimental mark and would refer to the 17th Lancers. The small letters could be SQN and refer to Squadron. '05' & '90' could be dates when repairs were undertaken. 'T.P.' could be TP for Troop and would be with a letter such as 'A' or 'B', etc. ....." Link to 17th Lancers ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Lancers It would seem that these Lances may have seen / been at several historical battles Best David

22nd October 2017, 12:10 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up! Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves. Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound. However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had. In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle. It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922. Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion. In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.