2 Victorian Lances

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 03:33 PM

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette

I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!"

I think one of the biggest confusions in lances are the ever present 'pig sticking' or 'tent pegging' lances which were heavily in use during the Raj.
These are typically shorter and have a heavy lead weight as the shoe. The head is different as well. These examples seem far more common and often misperceived as they are very close to the combat lances in appearance, especially those without the weighted shoe. I recall getting a pair of these back then and having no idea what the heck was up with the huge lead ball at the base.

While the lance was used in numerous colonial situations, it seems it was frowned upon in many cases not only from the standpoint of the advent of repeating firearms, but that it was cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in close quarters combat and melee. The longest standing use seems to have been with the native cavalry regiments from India, the fabled 'Bengal Lancers', who continued use well through the 1930s. I have mentioned before my great visit with Brigadier Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers") before his passing in 1992, and his great tales of one of the last cavalry charges on the plains in Khyber Agency in the 1930s.

In research on the lance many years ago I learned that at least one cavalry regiment in Pennsylvania was outfitted as a lancer regiment (I think it was Rush's lancers) in the Civil War period. I cannot recall finding these ever being used in combat, and mostly it sounds like a pretty unfortunate outcome with this experimental situation. As poorly trained as cavalry was with the sword, I can imagine how the lance must have fared. I just thought it an interesting note as we review some lance history.

I had a couple of books written by a Polish lancer in WWI, and in WWI the German uhlans used a fully metal lance of over 10 feet long. The Polish lancers in Napoleons service were quite the inspiration for lancer units in Europe. I recall reading these were much feared and despised as death from these lance wounds was particularly gruesome, and when captured the lancers were seldom given quarter and killed on the spot.

Gav, thanks very much for more on your lances, and I still hope to find something somewhere on the color pairing on lance pennons. Trying to recall work I did on this topic (around three decades ago

it seems there were of course colors to various countries, I think Germany was black & white, and so on. The blue and yellow for 3rd Bengal Lancers was it seems the single variationin among British cavalry.
In South Africa there were however native regimental contingents much as in India such as Natal Mounted Rifles if I recall correctly, but unsure whether any might have been outfitted as lancers. Perhaps some look into material on the two Boer wars might reveal units which might have that prospective.

Thanks very much guys for sharing these, and the boost down memory lane in my case!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 21st January 2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette

I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!"

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
yes I remembered you had one

....also, wasn't there something about a tulwar, a ceiling fan and a lot of Drambuie

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 06:22 PM

JUDL!!!
Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story

Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me

I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile.

Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings.
The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times.

In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event.
They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War.

While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances.

All the best,
Jim

broadaxe · 21st January 2012, 10:31 PM

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917.

Absolutely fantastic photos and info!!! Thank you for adding these, which add perfect dimension to our discussion on these

All the best,
Jim

katana · 23rd January 2012, 03:55 PM

Hi Broadaxe

,
thanks for the great images and info.

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

As most of the armoury markings etc are quite rubbed ...I will have to try and decipher those that are legible. I do not think the T.P is a badly struck I.P (India Pattern) however, if this is the case...I have read that consignments of British manufactured lances were sent to India for the use of the British Units, that seem to have been later marked I.P . (The 'standard' Indian Pattern butt has a larger ball/doughnut that is different to the British )

The male bamboo shaft was also considered superior to the Ash shafts ....and Ash was only used with the 1868 pattern if there was a shortage of suitable bamboo.

So its out with the magnifying glass.....

Regards David

katana · 24th January 2012, 09:19 PM

As best as I can make out, the markings on the lances are..

LANCE 1

SHAFT

E (approx 5mm high)

crown
75
E

crown
71
E

BUTT

crown
06
E

crown
K (?)

05 (approx 5mm) 90 (approx 5mm)

4 (perhaps size number)

POINT

T.P. (approx 5mm )

'3'

crown
71
E

crown (possibly, badly rubbed)
14

LANCE 2

SHAFT

crown
75
E

crown
73
E

17 (17th Lancers ??)

BUTT too much patination to see any markings

POINT

T.P.

??? ' 27

??? could be SRN or SQN

Any suggestions as to the possible meanings of some of the markings gratefully received.....as is any other comments or information

Kind Regards David

Dmitry · 21st October 2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ...

The 5th Royal Irish
The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal )
The 17th
The 21st

All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India.

My guess is that they were deployed against poorly-armed and poorly-trained opponents for a reason. Why waste expensive ammunition and wear and tear of the firearms, when a lancer can pick as many running natives as he wishes?

I just bought a lot of three lances myself, haven't looked at them properly yet. This is a a useful thread.

21st January 2012, 10:31 PM	#4
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	My city, Haifa, was captured from the Ottoman turks at the end of WWI, 23th September 1918, by the 16th Indian cavalry brigade, Jodhpur & Mysore lancers. 1st photo is a very famous one, showing the Indian lancers as they march into Haifa via Jaffa Road, on that very day. 2nd photo shows Indian lancers somewhere else at the end of WWI - watch the cheering crowd - I think this is Tel-Aviv. 3rd photo shows British lancers on ceremonial guard in Haifa, probably 1920's. Last photo shows 2008 Australian lancers during the declaration of the Australian cavalry Park in Beersheba, captured from the Ottomans by ANZAC cavalry on 31st October, 1917. Attached Images

23rd January 2012, 03:55 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Broadaxe , thanks for the great images and info. It seems that during the Victorian era there were only 4 lancer regiments ... The 5th Royal Irish The 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal ) The 17th The 21st All saw action in Africa ....and most of these units saw action in India. As most of the armoury markings etc are quite rubbed ...I will have to try and decipher those that are legible. I do not think the T.P is a badly struck I.P (India Pattern) however, if this is the case...I have read that consignments of British manufactured lances were sent to India for the use of the British Units, that seem to have been later marked I.P . (The 'standard' Indian Pattern butt has a larger ball/doughnut that is different to the British ) The male bamboo shaft was also considered superior to the Ash shafts ....and Ash was only used with the 1868 pattern if there was a shortage of suitable bamboo. So its out with the magnifying glass..... Regards David Attached Images

21st January 2012, 03:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,559	Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!" I think one of the biggest confusions in lances are the ever present 'pig sticking' or 'tent pegging' lances which were heavily in use during the Raj. These are typically shorter and have a heavy lead weight as the shoe. The head is different as well. These examples seem far more common and often misperceived as they are very close to the combat lances in appearance, especially those without the weighted shoe. I recall getting a pair of these back then and having no idea what the heck was up with the huge lead ball at the base. While the lance was used in numerous colonial situations, it seems it was frowned upon in many cases not only from the standpoint of the advent of repeating firearms, but that it was cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in close quarters combat and melee. The longest standing use seems to have been with the native cavalry regiments from India, the fabled 'Bengal Lancers', who continued use well through the 1930s. I have mentioned before my great visit with Brigadier Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers") before his passing in 1992, and his great tales of one of the last cavalry charges on the plains in Khyber Agency in the 1930s. In research on the lance many years ago I learned that at least one cavalry regiment in Pennsylvania was outfitted as a lancer regiment (I think it was Rush's lancers) in the Civil War period. I cannot recall finding these ever being used in combat, and mostly it sounds like a pretty unfortunate outcome with this experimental situation. As poorly trained as cavalry was with the sword, I can imagine how the lance must have fared. I just thought it an interesting note as we review some lance history. I had a couple of books written by a Polish lancer in WWI, and in WWI the German uhlans used a fully metal lance of over 10 feet long. The Polish lancers in Napoleons service were quite the inspiration for lancer units in Europe. I recall reading these were much feared and despised as death from these lance wounds was particularly gruesome, and when captured the lancers were seldom given quarter and killed on the spot. Gav, thanks very much for more on your lances, and I still hope to find something somewhere on the color pairing on lance pennons. Trying to recall work I did on this topic (around three decades ago it seems there were of course colors to various countries, I think Germany was black & white, and so on. The blue and yellow for 3rd Bengal Lancers was it seems the single variationin among British cavalry. In South Africa there were however native regimental contingents much as in India such as Natal Mounted Rifles if I recall correctly, but unsure whether any might have been outfitted as lancers. Perhaps some look into material on the two Boer wars might reveal units which might have that prospective. Thanks very much guys for sharing these, and the boost down memory lane in my case! All the best, Jim

21st January 2012, 06:22 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,559	JUDL!!! Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile. Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings. The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times. In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event. They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War. While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances. All the best, Jim

24th January 2012, 09:19 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	As best as I can make out, the markings on the lances are.. LANCE 1 SHAFT E (approx 5mm high) crown 75 E crown 71 E BUTT crown 06 E crown K (?) 05 (approx 5mm) 90 (approx 5mm) 4 (perhaps size number) POINT T.P. (approx 5mm ) '3' crown 71 E crown (possibly, badly rubbed) 14 LANCE 2 SHAFT crown 75 E crown 73 E 17 (17th Lancers ??) BUTT too much patination to see any markings POINT T.P. ??? ' 27 ??? could be SRN or SQN Any suggestions as to the possible meanings of some of the markings gratefully received.....as is any other comments or information Kind Regards David