How to id a European kaskara blade?

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2012, 11:08 PM

I've been going through all the standard references, Cronau, Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Boccia & Coelho etc. and no sign of a wasp anywhere. Since Italu once used the scorpion it was tempting to associate, and we have the fly from c.1847 Solingen. My take at this point is that it is a native marking tending toward some of the concepts connected to warrior attributes, i.e. cross and orb=drum for courage; the fly= jumping agility etc. It is in this case placed near the blade root under the langet much as some of the other marks, thus extending this imbued power to the blade. Obviously this is a speculative suggestion, but seems to correspond in a sense to other use of these 'talismanic' markings on these blades.

I am wondering if this now seemingly well represented type of blade with elliptical fuller upper third of blade might be of a type produced by the smiths in the Sudanese regions near Kasalla influenced by Solingen prototypes entering those regions c.1890s. The stamp may have been from one used by industrial manufacturers active in commerce there during the condominium and related to stamping of products handled there? Possibly the stamp is outside the arms perview, but well applied in the parlance of the other similar type markings?

Iain · 21st January 2012, 01:12 AM

Hi Jim,

I was hoping Ed might have some insights when he gets a chance to visit the thread.

Looks like I went through a few of the same materials as you, although you covered more ground for sure. I also produced a blank, not a sign of a wasp in anything takouba or kaskara related I have access to.

I think the blade is likely to be native at this point, the fuller isn't as long as on Chris' Clauberg for one thing. Still it's well made with good flex. I think the entry of this blade style was earlier, as the standing knight was in use by Clauberg from 1850.

The stamp does confuse me though, the style isn't something I'd associate with most native marks. I think if it is native, you are spot on with the talismanic attributes idea, similar thoughts crossed my mind.

Where's Ed?

Edster · 21st January 2012, 05:33 PM

Sorry, Iain, I can't help. In my limited experience I've never seen anything like it. The figure looks to be in one piece and seems too big, deep and well struck to be a native mark. One would really have to give the die a strong whack to get the imprint into steel and would have to do it after the fuller was formed and before the blade was hardened, although the blade at the upper end generally would not be hardened as much as on the sharp end. Also, it is apparently unique. All this being said, I still don't have a clue and can't hazard a guess.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 07:11 PM

Hi Ed,
Thank you for joining in with this conundrum. Very good point on the character of the stamp and as well as being well executed,the wasp is deeply struck.

I think at this point, the suggestion on native application seems unlikely so I think we return to Solingen. After the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 it seems there was wild speculation financially in industrial sectors in Solingen and I think considerable consolidation and restructuring of many of the cutlery and blademaking firms. I would suggest that amid these burgeoning commercial situations perhaps subsidiary producers may have augmented supply to factors and larger firms.
This wasp may have been used by one of these producers which was short term or escaped record in the corpus of material on marks. If it was recorded perhaps it was among those lost during wartime misfortune.

It is interesting that often markings seem to be spin offs or allusions to other well established marks from earlier Solingen maker heritage, and the use of the fly was one, but more importantly there was the bee....the beehive was used by Samuel Hoppe much earlier. It is not a long reach from bee to wasp, and seems plausible that a smaller firm hoping to attract contacts from one of the larger firms might use a mark associated in degree with important traditional examples.

I think we have a pretty good idea that Solingen in this industrial boom was indeed likely producing blades for export to Africa during the Condominium.
These kinds of situations are well illustrated in England with firms producing for the Indian government such as Wilkinson, with much of thier material produced by Mole. There were outfitters like Bourne & Son using Mole blades as well and supplying the India Office for distribution to units in India. As we know, Wilkinson was also supplying native form shotel blades to Abyssinia well into the 1930s, as well as were Solingen makers, so we know blades were specifically made for colonial markets.

I did check through most of the Sheffield marks and material I have just in case there might have been some connection so at this point I feel this wasp is probably Solingen but unrecorded as probably from subcontract firm.

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 21st January 2012, 10:45 PM

Thanks for the continued insights Jim and Ed.

I think Jim's idea is a good one, it certainly seems like decent steel, but has the absolute minimum of finishing, this is a strange contrast with the well defined and detailed stamp but would seem to fit in with other roughly finished trade blades.

As Jim suggested, perhaps the wasp or hornet was seen as a plausible addition to a pantheon of trade blades that already included the fly and bee.

A big thank you to Jim for digging through your notes and references. I really appreciate it. On the one hand I love these little mysteries because it adds personal value to the piece, having something a little odd and unique, on the other hand it's frustrating not being able to verify what it is exactly!

All the best,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2012, 04:28 PM

Thanks very much Iain, and its very much my pleasure adding what I can to the outstanding information you always present. I appreciate Ed's insight as well, and with his most important field work and well informed observations I think we can pretty much rule out native application on this wasp stamp.

I hope perhaps we might find corroborating examples, and possibly with any additional context we mind be able to establish a route for further research into the origins and period of the marking. The use of the wasp actually seems so well placed among the themes in these makings that I felt almost certain I had seen something like it. Apparantly the beehive and fly, as well as perhaps the scorpion were temporally present at the time, but carefully going through these compilations of marks turned up no matches.

Possibly Stephen Wood might have come across this marking in the considerable number of kaskara he has handled, so I hope he reads this and might comment. Meanwhile, the conundrum continues

All the best,
Jim

Mefidk · 22nd January 2012, 04:48 PM

Sorry, can't help with the wasp - but I agree it does not look native applied to me, and I guess has managed to remain in good condition because its in the fuller.

I'm not sure (unless the steel is poor quality?) that a subcontracted or minor maker necessarily is the cause for the poor finishing. Its likely this had a ricasso at some time and the sharpening and local preparing probably is the cause of the less than perfect appearence.

Next post has details of my flex test.

20th January 2012, 11:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I've been going through all the standard references, Cronau, Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Boccia & Coelho etc. and no sign of a wasp anywhere. Since Italu once used the scorpion it was tempting to associate, and we have the fly from c.1847 Solingen. My take at this point is that it is a native marking tending toward some of the concepts connected to warrior attributes, i.e. cross and orb=drum for courage; the fly= jumping agility etc. It is in this case placed near the blade root under the langet much as some of the other marks, thus extending this imbued power to the blade. Obviously this is a speculative suggestion, but seems to correspond in a sense to other use of these 'talismanic' markings on these blades. I am wondering if this now seemingly well represented type of blade with elliptical fuller upper third of blade might be of a type produced by the smiths in the Sudanese regions near Kasalla influenced by Solingen prototypes entering those regions c.1890s. The stamp may have been from one used by industrial manufacturers active in commerce there during the condominium and related to stamping of products handled there? Possibly the stamp is outside the arms perview, but well applied in the parlance of the other similar type markings?

21st January 2012, 01:12 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Jim, I was hoping Ed might have some insights when he gets a chance to visit the thread. Looks like I went through a few of the same materials as you, although you covered more ground for sure. I also produced a blank, not a sign of a wasp in anything takouba or kaskara related I have access to. I think the blade is likely to be native at this point, the fuller isn't as long as on Chris' Clauberg for one thing. Still it's well made with good flex. I think the entry of this blade style was earlier, as the standing knight was in use by Clauberg from 1850. The stamp does confuse me though, the style isn't something I'd associate with most native marks. I think if it is native, you are spot on with the talismanic attributes idea, similar thoughts crossed my mind. Where's Ed?

21st January 2012, 05:33 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Sorry, Iain, I can't help. In my limited experience I've never seen anything like it. The figure looks to be in one piece and seems too big, deep and well struck to be a native mark. One would really have to give the die a strong whack to get the imprint into steel and would have to do it after the fuller was formed and before the blade was hardened, although the blade at the upper end generally would not be hardened as much as on the sharp end. Also, it is apparently unique. All this being said, I still don't have a clue and can't hazard a guess.

21st January 2012, 07:11 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Ed, Thank you for joining in with this conundrum. Very good point on the character of the stamp and as well as being well executed,the wasp is deeply struck. I think at this point, the suggestion on native application seems unlikely so I think we return to Solingen. After the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 it seems there was wild speculation financially in industrial sectors in Solingen and I think considerable consolidation and restructuring of many of the cutlery and blademaking firms. I would suggest that amid these burgeoning commercial situations perhaps subsidiary producers may have augmented supply to factors and larger firms. This wasp may have been used by one of these producers which was short term or escaped record in the corpus of material on marks. If it was recorded perhaps it was among those lost during wartime misfortune. It is interesting that often markings seem to be spin offs or allusions to other well established marks from earlier Solingen maker heritage, and the use of the fly was one, but more importantly there was the bee....the beehive was used by Samuel Hoppe much earlier. It is not a long reach from bee to wasp, and seems plausible that a smaller firm hoping to attract contacts from one of the larger firms might use a mark associated in degree with important traditional examples. I think we have a pretty good idea that Solingen in this industrial boom was indeed likely producing blades for export to Africa during the Condominium. These kinds of situations are well illustrated in England with firms producing for the Indian government such as Wilkinson, with much of thier material produced by Mole. There were outfitters like Bourne & Son using Mole blades as well and supplying the India Office for distribution to units in India. As we know, Wilkinson was also supplying native form shotel blades to Abyssinia well into the 1930s, as well as were Solingen makers, so we know blades were specifically made for colonial markets. I did check through most of the Sheffield marks and material I have just in case there might have been some connection so at this point I feel this wasp is probably Solingen but unrecorded as probably from subcontract firm. All the best, Jim

21st January 2012, 10:45 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Thanks for the continued insights Jim and Ed. I think Jim's idea is a good one, it certainly seems like decent steel, but has the absolute minimum of finishing, this is a strange contrast with the well defined and detailed stamp but would seem to fit in with other roughly finished trade blades. As Jim suggested, perhaps the wasp or hornet was seen as a plausible addition to a pantheon of trade blades that already included the fly and bee. A big thank you to Jim for digging through your notes and references. I really appreciate it. On the one hand I love these little mysteries because it adds personal value to the piece, having something a little odd and unique, on the other hand it's frustrating not being able to verify what it is exactly! All the best, Iain

22nd January 2012, 04:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Iain, and its very much my pleasure adding what I can to the outstanding information you always present. I appreciate Ed's insight as well, and with his most important field work and well informed observations I think we can pretty much rule out native application on this wasp stamp. I hope perhaps we might find corroborating examples, and possibly with any additional context we mind be able to establish a route for further research into the origins and period of the marking. The use of the wasp actually seems so well placed among the themes in these makings that I felt almost certain I had seen something like it. Apparantly the beehive and fly, as well as perhaps the scorpion were temporally present at the time, but carefully going through these compilations of marks turned up no matches. Possibly Stephen Wood might have come across this marking in the considerable number of kaskara he has handled, so I hope he reads this and might comment. Meanwhile, the conundrum continues All the best, Jim

22nd January 2012, 04:48 PM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Sorry, can't help with the wasp - but I agree it does not look native applied to me, and I guess has managed to remain in good condition because its in the fuller. I'm not sure (unless the steel is poor quality?) that a subcontracted or minor maker necessarily is the cause for the poor finishing. Its likely this had a ricasso at some time and the sharpening and local preparing probably is the cause of the less than perfect appearence. Next post has details of my flex test.