Dutch model cannons 1761

cornelistromp · 20th January 2012, 04:05 PM

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

cannonmn · 20th January 2012, 05:56 PM

Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open.

The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc.

However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons.

I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted.

These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.

cornelistromp · 21st January 2012, 09:56 AM

what a beautiful couple!

the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made by cornelis Ouderogge as well.

There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order.
I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted

I will try to post some pictures later.

best,

cannonmn · 21st January 2012, 11:31 AM

Cornelis, thanks again. I was still curious so I went to the Rijks.M. site and locted their page on the cannon you so kindly posted, and pasted it below here for anyone's reference.

Then I did of course the natural thing and hurried off to measure mine to see if they matched that example in the Rijks.M.

My pair have barrels of total length 63 cm, same as the museum example. The bores on mine are 3.1 cm caliber/diameter, and that in the museum is 2.8 cm, so either mine enlarged from firing or Ouderogge simply bored them a bit larger, but the overall details match precisely so I can now be sure mine are also Ouderogge pieces, at least "by attribution."

I have only been trying to figure out for the past 29 years who cast my pair of guns, so thanks very much for solving that problem for me!
---------------------
Identificatie / Vervaardiging Fysieke kenmerken Opschriften / merken Verwerving Identificatie / VervaardigingIdentificatie / Vervaardiging Collectie
wapens / militaria
Objectnummer
NG-NM-9803-A
Titel(s)
Model van een bronzen kanonVervaardiger
bronsgieter: Cornelis Ouderogge
(.... - 1672)
plaats vervaardiging: Rotterdam
Datering
1649

Fysiek medium
Materiaal
bronsAfmetingen
geheel lengte: 63.5 cm, geheel breedte: 12.9 cm
totaal gewicht: 18 kg
monding-zundgat lengte: 53.5 cm
kaliber diameter: 2.8 cm
druifbol diameter: 3.4 cm
kulasband diameter: 9.9 cm
tap diameter: 3 cm
loop diameter: 5.4 cm, loop diameter: 8.7 cm Opschriften / merkenOpschriften / merkenOpschriften / merken
signatuur en datum: 1649 / OUDE ROGGE.FECIT.ROTTERDAM.
monogram: A H
VerwervingVerwerving Verwerving
aankoop in 1894-04-17VerwervingNummers / relaties

cornelistromp · 21st January 2012, 03:42 PM

you'r welcome.

my first 2 pounder Breech-loader cannon, 15 cal. after a short discussion with my wife put by her outside the house

It comes from a wreck, I just do not know which one yet.this breech-loader is auctioned by Christies and comes from the family of Michiel de Ruyter.
An identical Breech loader is described by Roth P 112/113, only this one is made for the VOC and comes from the shipwreck Hollandia.

My Cannon is cast for the Admiralty of Amsterdam, and the good thing is that the original chamber is there, with the townmark of Amsterdam and the sign of the Admiralty of Amsterdam, two crossed anchors and two A's.These are also on the cannon itself, but difficult to read.

probably also as suggested by Roth cast by Cyprianus Crans.

I added also a picture from Museum??? with a similar cannon.

best, Jasper

fernando · 21st January 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... after a short discussion with my wife put by her outside the house

And you are surprised?
Well, i ignore the size of your house

.
What a nice cannon ... with original chamber and everything

cannonmn · 22nd January 2012, 12:46 AM

Thanks Jasper, neat stuff. I'm amazed at how the breech piece looks like new and there's so much wear on the gun itself. I've never seen a bronze breech piece in that newish condition, nor one that extensively marked!

Would you please give some details on the bottom photo in your response no. 13, the one with the large Dutch wreck-recovered cannon on the wheeled dolly? Was the gun marked, if so what marks, date, maker, owner, caliber, etc.?

rivercat · 15th February 2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

cornelistromp · 15th February 2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivercat

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

welcome to the forum,
that sounds a very interesting job to do!, I will plan to visit the fort Amherst someday in the near future.
if you install to accept personal mail, I'll send you a pm with the email address of a marine archaeologist who probably can help you further with this troley.

best,

rivercat · 16th February 2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

welcome to the forum,
that sounds a very interesting job to do!, I will plan to visit the fort Amherst someday in the near future.
if you install to accept personal mail, I'll send you a pm with the email address of a marine archaeologist who probably can help you further with this troley.

best,

Thanks very much, have altered things to allow emails etc.
If you come to the Fort let me have some notice and I will show you around.
regards
rivercat

cornelistromp · 16th February 2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivercat

Thanks very much, have altered things to allow emails etc.
If you come to the Fort let me have some notice and I will show you around.
regards
rivercat

Hi,

thanks, I will contact you before my visit.
I still can't sent pm to you, maybe you can pm me your email adress, so I can mail you direct.

best,

rivercat · 19th February 2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi,

thanks, I will contact you before my visit.
I still can't sent pm to you, maybe you can pm me your email adress, so I can mail you direct.

best,

I have checked the settings again and I think it is ok, as I am a new member I do have limited access perhaps the Admin can help us out and pass on my email address.
many thanks

fernando · 19th February 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivercat

... perhaps the Admin can help us out and pass on my email address...

Jasper, your PM box is full.
Let me know when you clear it.

20th January 2012, 04:05 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th January 2012 at 04:17 PM.

21st January 2012, 09:56 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	what a beautiful couple! the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made by cornelis Ouderogge as well. There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order. I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted I will try to post some pictures later. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st January 2012 at 02:27 PM.

21st January 2012, 03:42 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	you'r welcome. my first 2 pounder Breech-loader cannon, 15 cal. after a short discussion with my wife put by her outside the house It comes from a wreck, I just do not know which one yet.this breech-loader is auctioned by Christies and comes from the family of Michiel de Ruyter. An identical Breech loader is described by Roth P 112/113, only this one is made for the VOC and comes from the shipwreck Hollandia. My Cannon is cast for the Admiralty of Amsterdam, and the good thing is that the original chamber is there, with the townmark of Amsterdam and the sign of the Admiralty of Amsterdam, two crossed anchors and two A's.These are also on the cannon itself, but difficult to read. probably also as suggested by Roth cast by Cyprianus Crans. I added also a picture from Museum??? with a similar cannon. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st January 2012 at 04:06 PM.

20th January 2012, 05:56 PM	#2
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open. The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc. However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons. I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted. These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.

21st January 2012, 11:31 AM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Cornelis, thanks again. I was still curious so I went to the Rijks.M. site and locted their page on the cannon you so kindly posted, and pasted it below here for anyone's reference. Then I did of course the natural thing and hurried off to measure mine to see if they matched that example in the Rijks.M. My pair have barrels of total length 63 cm, same as the museum example. The bores on mine are 3.1 cm caliber/diameter, and that in the museum is 2.8 cm, so either mine enlarged from firing or Ouderogge simply bored them a bit larger, but the overall details match precisely so I can now be sure mine are also Ouderogge pieces, at least "by attribution." I have only been trying to figure out for the past 29 years who cast my pair of guns, so thanks very much for solving that problem for me! --------------------- Identificatie / Vervaardiging Fysieke kenmerken Opschriften / merken Verwerving Identificatie / VervaardigingIdentificatie / Vervaardiging Collectie wapens / militaria Objectnummer NG-NM-9803-A Titel(s) Model van een bronzen kanonVervaardiger bronsgieter: Cornelis Ouderogge (.... - 1672) plaats vervaardiging: Rotterdam Datering 1649 Fysiek medium Materiaal bronsAfmetingen geheel lengte: 63.5 cm, geheel breedte: 12.9 cm totaal gewicht: 18 kg monding-zundgat lengte: 53.5 cm kaliber diameter: 2.8 cm druifbol diameter: 3.4 cm kulasband diameter: 9.9 cm tap diameter: 3 cm loop diameter: 5.4 cm, loop diameter: 8.7 cm Opschriften / merkenOpschriften / merkenOpschriften / merken signatuur en datum: 1649 / OUDE ROGGE.FECIT.ROTTERDAM. monogram: A H VerwervingVerwerving Verwerving aankoop in 1894-04-17VerwervingNummers / relaties

22nd January 2012, 12:46 AM	#7
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks Jasper, neat stuff. I'm amazed at how the breech piece looks like new and there's so much wear on the gun itself. I've never seen a bronze breech piece in that newish condition, nor one that extensively marked! Would you please give some details on the bottom photo in your response no. 13, the one with the large Dutch wreck-recovered cannon on the wheeled dolly? Was the gun marked, if so what marks, date, maker, owner, caliber, etc.?