Dutch model cannons 1761

[cannonmn]

Cornelis, thanks, good information there. I had not seen that view of Ost Ind. Huis before anywhere. I will have to look up the book you mention, I had not heard of it before, my only Dutch cannon book is the Visser collection. Yet I have cannons by Ouderogge and Overney in addition to those of Seest so I like to learn of any sources available on Dutch cannons.

I have some information about Cornelis Ouderogge which has now been put on the web (the family etc. in Rotterdam) but I've found precious little information on Petrus Ouderogge of Leeuwarden. Do you have any suggestions there? I have one of the falcons dated 1681, once owned by Count Innhausen und Knyphausen (not complete name, I have forgotten some of this.) He lived at Nienoord, where the Dutch National Coach Museum is now. I think two of the Overney cannons are still at that place.

[cornelistromp]

there is no Petrus Ouderogge known, I think you mean Petrus overney.

Peter Overney, from Suawoude, Leeuwarden was active in the period 1670-1711, more than forty years accordingly. In 1671 he married the widow of the bell and cannon founder Jurrien Balthasar whose successor he was. Even when he became a citizen of Leeuwarden. The same year he received from the States of Friesland the exclusive right to cast exclusively clocks, and guns in that province. this right was repeated in 1685. Overney was a prolific bell founder, although he, apparently, has made only clocks in the provinces of Friesland and Groningen.

re: founder Ouderogge
this was a family of founders.
jan corneliszoon 1573-1625 cornelis 1599-1672 and brother Dirk 1600-1645 and the son of Cornelis Johannes 1640-??.

which person of the Ouderogge's family are you looking for, is your Ouderogge cannon dated?
(so if your cannon is dated 1681 is must have been made by Johannes ouderogge!)

best,

[cannonmn]

there is no Petrus Ouderogge known, I think you mean Petrus overney.

Correct, and thanks for the information on Petrus Overney. I recently learned the mate to my falcon, complete with identical carriage, is in storage at the Victoria and Albert museum in London. Their website has a fairly detailed description of it but I don't recall a photo.

The Ouderogge falcon is dated 1681.

There are a pair of Cornelis Ouderogge (large swivel guns?) with dolphins dated 1654. I have always been interested in how these guns would have been mounted originally. Were they used as ship's swivel guns, small carriage guns, or what? The cartouche is blank, so I guess we can rule out any use by the VOC. Any comment on how these may have been used would be welcome. They are as i recall about three feet long and one weighs 107 and the other 109 Amsterdam (?) pounds.

[cornelistromp]

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

[cannonmn]

Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open.

The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc.

However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons.

I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted.

These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.

[cornelistromp]

what a beautiful couple!


the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made ​​by cornelis Ouderogge as well.


There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order.
I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted I will try to post some pictures later.

best,

[cannonmn]

Cornelis, thanks again. I was still curious so I went to the Rijks.M. site and locted their page on the cannon you so kindly posted, and pasted it below here for anyone's reference.

Then I did of course the natural thing and hurried off to measure mine to see if they matched that example in the Rijks.M.

My pair have barrels of total length 63 cm, same as the museum example. The bores on mine are 3.1 cm caliber/diameter, and that in the museum is 2.8 cm, so either mine enlarged from firing or Ouderogge simply bored them a bit larger, but the overall details match precisely so I can now be sure mine are also Ouderogge pieces, at least "by attribution."

I have only been trying to figure out for the past 29 years who cast my pair of guns, so thanks very much for solving that problem for me!
---------------------
Identificatie / Vervaardiging Fysieke kenmerken Opschriften / merken Verwerving Identificatie / VervaardigingIdentificatie / Vervaardiging Collectie
wapens / militaria
Objectnummer
NG-NM-9803-A
Titel(s)
Model van een bronzen kanonVervaardiger
bronsgieter: Cornelis Ouderogge
(.... - 1672)
plaats vervaardiging: Rotterdam
Datering
1649

Fysiek medium
Materiaal
bronsAfmetingen
geheel lengte: 63.5 cm, geheel breedte: 12.9 cm
totaal gewicht: 18 kg
monding-zundgat lengte: 53.5 cm
kaliber diameter: 2.8 cm
druifbol diameter: 3.4 cm
kulasband diameter: 9.9 cm
tap diameter: 3 cm
loop diameter: 5.4 cm, loop diameter: 8.7 cm Opschriften / merkenOpschriften / merkenOpschriften / merken
signatuur en datum: 1649 / OUDE ROGGE.FECIT.ROTTERDAM.
monogram: A H
VerwervingVerwerving Verwerving
aankoop in 1894-04-17VerwervingNummers / relaties

[rivercat]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by rivercat

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

welcome to the forum,
that sounds a very interesting job to do!, I will plan to visit the fort Amherst someday in the near future.
if you install to accept personal mail, I'll send you a pm with the email address of a marine archaeologist who probably can help you further with this troley.

best,

[rivercat]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

welcome to the forum,
that sounds a very interesting job to do!, I will plan to visit the fort Amherst someday in the near future.
if you install to accept personal mail, I'll send you a pm with the email address of a marine archaeologist who probably can help you further with this troley.

best,

Thanks very much, have altered things to allow emails etc.
If you come to the Fort let me have some notice and I will show you around.
regards
rivercat