Dutch model cannons 1761

cornelistromp · 16th January 2012, 06:47 PM

Of the person Pieter Seest are not many details preserved. Seest had
registered in the city of Amsterdam and was married. He got work in, the since 1614 existing guns and bell foundry on the corner of de Karthuizerstraat en de Baangracht.
Much later he became director of the foundry. This can be read in a number of official pieces. But what do they tell about the person Pieter Seest?
We read that he is Born in Holstein, northern Germany, in 1716. He came as a foreigner to Amsterdam, one of the richest cities. In itself nothing special. His predecessors in the foundry were almost all foreigners; from 1681 to 1699 Claude Fremy from a Lotharingen family, from 1699 to 1715 Claes Noorden, also from the city Holstein and Jan Albert de Graven of Celle in West Germany from 1699 to 1729.
Between 1730 and 1734 was Nicolaus Muller the founder master, a man with a real German name.

The direct predecessor of Pieter Seest was the famous and prolific caster Cyprianus Crans. About 1750 Pieter entered the service with him. Because there was peacetime a lot of church bells were cast. But the East India
Company (VOC) was a constant customer of mainly light artillery. Orders for
big guns came mainly from Portugal. So there are still big guns of the Crans
Artillery in the Army Museum in Lisbon and on the old ramparts of Tanger.

Pieter must have worked on this piece. When Cyprianus died in 1755 he became the master caster.
The Amsterdam Chamber of the VOC should have had faith in Peter, because
orders continued to come in light artillery. In the collection of the 2006 deceased gun collector H. L. Visser Wassenaar were not less than eighteen small guns (Most halfponders) of Seest, all cast for the VOC.
Seest also has many church bells cast, of which several exist today.
Unfortunately claimed the Germans in World War II many church bells. These were melted for the war industry. Maybe the last product of a Seest
cast was a mortar. This piece is on the walls of the Moroccan city of Essaouira.
According to legend, it is cast by Pieter Seest and sons in 1782. He has started already in 1781 and then deceased. His sons Christiaan and Jan must have completed the piece, because in 1781 they took control over the foundry.

(translated from het bronzen kanon van de kleine werf/ Nico Brinck)
picture of Oost indisch huis Amsterdam.

cannonmn · 16th January 2012, 10:00 PM

Cornelis, thanks, good information there. I had not seen that view of Ost Ind. Huis before anywhere. I will have to look up the book you mention, I had not heard of it before, my only Dutch cannon book is the Visser collection. Yet I have cannons by Ouderogge and Overney in addition to those of Seest so I like to learn of any sources available on Dutch cannons.

I have some information about Cornelis Ouderogge which has now been put on the web (the family etc. in Rotterdam) but I've found precious little information on Petrus Ouderogge of Leeuwarden. Do you have any suggestions there? I have one of the falcons dated 1681, once owned by Count Innhausen und Knyphausen (not complete name, I have forgotten some of this.) He lived at Nienoord, where the Dutch National Coach Museum is now. I think two of the Overney cannons are still at that place.

cornelistromp · 19th January 2012, 02:29 PM

there is no Petrus Ouderogge known, I think you mean Petrus overney.

Peter Overney, from Suawoude, Leeuwarden was active in the period 1670-1711, more than forty years accordingly. In 1671 he married the widow of the bell and cannon founder Jurrien Balthasar whose successor he was. Even when he became a citizen of Leeuwarden. The same year he received from the States of Friesland the exclusive right to cast exclusively clocks, and guns in that province. this right was repeated in 1685. Overney was a prolific bell founder, although he, apparently, has made only clocks in the provinces of Friesland and Groningen.

re: founder Ouderogge
this was a family of founders.
jan corneliszoon 1573-1625 cornelis 1599-1672 and brother Dirk 1600-1645 and the son of Cornelis Johannes 1640-??.

which person of the Ouderogge's family are you looking for, is your Ouderogge cannon dated?
(so if your cannon is dated 1681 is must have been made by Johannes ouderogge!)

best,

cannonmn · 19th January 2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

there is no Petrus Ouderogge known, I think you mean Petrus overney.

Correct, and thanks for the information on Petrus Overney. I recently learned the mate to my falcon, complete with identical carriage, is in storage at the Victoria and Albert museum in London. Their website has a fairly detailed description of it but I don't recall a photo.

The Ouderogge falcon is dated 1681.

There are a pair of Cornelis Ouderogge (large swivel guns?) with dolphins dated 1654. I have always been interested in how these guns would have been mounted originally. Were they used as ship's swivel guns, small carriage guns, or what? The cartouche is blank, so I guess we can rule out any use by the VOC. Any comment on how these may have been used would be welcome. They are as i recall about three feet long and one weighs 107 and the other 109 Amsterdam (?) pounds.

cornelistromp · 20th January 2012, 04:05 PM

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

cannonmn · 20th January 2012, 05:56 PM

Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open.

The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc.

However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons.

I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted.

These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.

cornelistromp · 21st January 2012, 09:56 AM

what a beautiful couple!

the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made by cornelis Ouderogge as well.

There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order.
I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted

I will try to post some pictures later.

best,

rivercat · 15th February 2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one.

best,

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

cornelistromp · 15th February 2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivercat

Hi cornelistromp,
I am a new member to the forum, I found the forum via searching for information regarding Naval Cannon.
I am incharge of the restoration and maintenance of Fort Amherst in Chatham Kent. We currently are the holders of the biggest collection of cannon in the UK which numbers about 130no most of which are on display. We also have a number of cannon that have been proofed and which we fire on a regular basis. Our largest cannon is a 68pdr the smallest is a 3pdr we also have a number of mortars again ranging in size.
Anyway the reason for this post is that a couple of the pictures you have posted show a cannon barrel on a trolley which has been used for I assume the restoration of the barrel.
I would be grateful if you could give me any information or plans for this trolley or put me in touch with the person who made it as we would like to have one at the Fort for ourselves. We currently have about 20no barrels that are either in need of restoration or have had this started so it is quite a large project for us.
Regards
rivercat

welcome to the forum,
that sounds a very interesting job to do!, I will plan to visit the fort Amherst someday in the near future.
if you install to accept personal mail, I'll send you a pm with the email address of a marine archaeologist who probably can help you further with this troley.

best,

16th January 2012, 06:47 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Of the person Pieter Seest are not many details preserved. Seest had registered in the city of Amsterdam and was married. He got work in, the since 1614 existing guns and bell foundry on the corner of de Karthuizerstraat en de Baangracht. Much later he became director of the foundry. This can be read in a number of official pieces. But what do they tell about the person Pieter Seest? We read that he is Born in Holstein, northern Germany, in 1716. He came as a foreigner to Amsterdam, one of the richest cities. In itself nothing special. His predecessors in the foundry were almost all foreigners; from 1681 to 1699 Claude Fremy from a Lotharingen family, from 1699 to 1715 Claes Noorden, also from the city Holstein and Jan Albert de Graven of Celle in West Germany from 1699 to 1729. Between 1730 and 1734 was Nicolaus Muller the founder master, a man with a real German name. The direct predecessor of Pieter Seest was the famous and prolific caster Cyprianus Crans. About 1750 Pieter entered the service with him. Because there was peacetime a lot of church bells were cast. But the East India Company (VOC) was a constant customer of mainly light artillery. Orders for big guns came mainly from Portugal. So there are still big guns of the Crans Artillery in the Army Museum in Lisbon and on the old ramparts of Tanger. Pieter must have worked on this piece. When Cyprianus died in 1755 he became the master caster. The Amsterdam Chamber of the VOC should have had faith in Peter, because orders continued to come in light artillery. In the collection of the 2006 deceased gun collector H. L. Visser Wassenaar were not less than eighteen small guns (Most halfponders) of Seest, all cast for the VOC. Seest also has many church bells cast, of which several exist today. Unfortunately claimed the Germans in World War II many church bells. These were melted for the war industry. Maybe the last product of a Seest cast was a mortar. This piece is on the walls of the Moroccan city of Essaouira. According to legend, it is cast by Pieter Seest and sons in 1782. He has started already in 1781 and then deceased. His sons Christiaan and Jan must have completed the piece, because in 1781 they took control over the foundry. (translated from het bronzen kanon van de kleine werf/ Nico Brinck) picture of Oost indisch huis Amsterdam. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 16th January 2012 at 06:58 PM.

20th January 2012, 04:05 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	They may have been mounted on a carriage on a ship, but more likely is that they have served as a model cannon/ a sample for the sale or production of a larger one. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th January 2012 at 04:17 PM.

21st January 2012, 09:56 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	what a beautiful couple! the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made by cornelis Ouderogge as well. There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order. I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted I will try to post some pictures later. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st January 2012 at 02:27 PM.

16th January 2012, 10:00 PM	#2
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Cornelis, thanks, good information there. I had not seen that view of Ost Ind. Huis before anywhere. I will have to look up the book you mention, I had not heard of it before, my only Dutch cannon book is the Visser collection. Yet I have cannons by Ouderogge and Overney in addition to those of Seest so I like to learn of any sources available on Dutch cannons. I have some information about Cornelis Ouderogge which has now been put on the web (the family etc. in Rotterdam) but I've found precious little information on Petrus Ouderogge of Leeuwarden. Do you have any suggestions there? I have one of the falcons dated 1681, once owned by Count Innhausen und Knyphausen (not complete name, I have forgotten some of this.) He lived at Nienoord, where the Dutch National Coach Museum is now. I think two of the Overney cannons are still at that place.

19th January 2012, 02:29 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	there is no Petrus Ouderogge known, I think you mean Petrus overney. Peter Overney, from Suawoude, Leeuwarden was active in the period 1670-1711, more than forty years accordingly. In 1671 he married the widow of the bell and cannon founder Jurrien Balthasar whose successor he was. Even when he became a citizen of Leeuwarden. The same year he received from the States of Friesland the exclusive right to cast exclusively clocks, and guns in that province. this right was repeated in 1685. Overney was a prolific bell founder, although he, apparently, has made only clocks in the provinces of Friesland and Groningen. re: founder Ouderogge this was a family of founders. jan corneliszoon 1573-1625 cornelis 1599-1672 and brother Dirk 1600-1645 and the son of Cornelis Johannes 1640-??. which person of the Ouderogge's family are you looking for, is your Ouderogge cannon dated? (so if your cannon is dated 1681 is must have been made by Johannes ouderogge!) best,

20th January 2012, 05:56 PM	#6
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open. The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc. However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons. I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted. These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.