Celebes keris?

Harley · 13th January 2012, 07:42 PM

Hi Detlef and Rick,

I don´t think i will use this sheath now that i know the blade is Javanese, it´s a good fit, but i don´t like it, i´ll think i have to make one more sheath

I can´t give you an explanation why i don´t like to have a blade and sheath that are not from the same area, it´s just my idea.
And hopefully someday i find a Bugis blade for this sheath.
Thanks for your opinion!

regards,
Ben

Henk · 13th January 2012, 08:35 PM

I would leave this keris as it is.

I had the same idea as Rick, leave the pesi as it is and keep this ukiran.

The blade however might be a javanese blade. Javanese blades where highly apreciated, brought to these areas and mounted in Bugis or Celebes dress. The javanese blades where so much apreciated that blades where even forged in these areas after javanese examples

Harley · 13th January 2012, 09:00 PM

Hi Henk,

You guys are giving me a hard time

, just kidding, i appreciate the opinions
you've given.
I know that it's something thats not unusual, but why am i trying to give the lonely blade's a sheath that would fit for the area they come from, if i didn't take notice of it with this one?
I am not in a hurry, because i,m still busy with the other sheaths, so i have time to think about it.

regards,
Ben

David · 13th January 2012, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

You guys are giving me a hard time

, just kidding, i appreciate the opinions you've given.
I know that it's something thats not unusual, but why am i trying to give the lonely blade's a sheath that would fit for the area they come from, if i didn't take notice of it with this one?
I am not in a hurry, because i,m still busy with the other sheaths, so i have time to think about it.

You know Harley, i am in full agreement with Henk. If indeed this sheath appears to have been made for this blade i would leave it dressed just as is. You often find blades from Jawa dressed in other styles either because the blade travelled in trade to one of the other islands or it's owner migrated to one of these other islands and decided to dress his blade in the style of his new home. From my perspective these keris come with a history and i am always surprised to find that many collectors want to lose that history in order to either upgrade a keris that they have no family connection with or dress it in a manner that they deem more culturally correct. This seems a shame to me as the history of a keris is an important part of what i am trying to collect and maintain in my own collection. Certainly it is true that we sometimes run across "frankenkeris" creations thrown together by dealers just trying to make a sale, but if it seems at all that this marriage of blade and dress has any real ethnographic history to it i would just leave it be.

Marcokeris · 13th January 2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

I would leave this keris as it is.

I had the same idea as Rick, leave the pesi as it is and keep this ukiran.

The blade however might be a javanese blade. Javanese blades where highly apreciated, brought to these areas and mounted in Bugis or Celebes dress. The javanese blades where so much apreciated that blades where even forged in these areas after javanese examples

I agree. Imo also the pesi is good . The curve of the pesi should be fully secure the bugis handle in the right position chosen by the previous owner (without to put other material around the pesi)
PS: I like a lot pamor patter of your keris

Harley · 13th January 2012, 10:51 PM

It looks like i am overruled here, i reckon i am the only one with this strange way of thinking

But it definitely made me to give it a second taught!
Thanks Marco

regards,
Ben

asomotif · 13th January 2012, 11:13 PM

Hello Ben,

Nice keris. The fit in the scabbard looks good. So I am also in favour of keeping it as it is. I would probably even not straighten the peksi unless it would give an inproper fitting of the hilt.

As for turning this into a javanese keris ?
Why bother, when there are plenty of nice javanese keris available.
Expand your collection

find a nice javanese keris in javanese dress.

Best regards,
Willem

Harley · 13th January 2012, 11:15 PM

David,

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.
But these are the things that are so great about this forum, everyone give there honest opinion, and i respect that fully.

regards,
Ben

Harley · 13th January 2012, 11:31 PM

thanks Willem,

I was going to straighten the pesi for the Javanese sheath and hilt, but when i read all the response it's not a good idea

You know Willem not everyone is the same position, the only way for me to expand my collection is the way i do now, buying blades and make a sheath an urikan, maybe not the real thing, but for me it will do.
My little collection exist of almost all Javanese keris, so that is not the point

best regards,
Ben

Sajen · 14th January 2012, 12:09 AM

Hi Ben,

can you give us a picture from up when the blade is inside the sheath? And as well a look inside the sheath mouth without blade?

BTW, the Bugis sheath is very very nice!

Best,

Detlef

David · 14th January 2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.

If i recall that Bali keris correctly that sheath appeared to be a bit of a mishmash of styles that probably was indeed thrown together to make the keris salable. The woodwork wasn't particularly good, but also didn't appear to be a very good example of any true Balinese style of dress. At best it was rough village work that didn't really adhere to the standards of the form it was attempting to emulate.
OTOH, this Celebes sheath appears to be fairly nicely crafted of some very nice wood. The fit looks custom to me and my personal assumption would be that this keris was in "service" as a Celebes keris. A keris found in a particular dress like this can fairly and rightfully be referred to as being a keris of that particular culture regardless of the origin of the blade. Again, this is fairly common practice. As was mentioned in a recent thread, the legendary keris Taming Sari was said to have been made in Jawa, but is now considered part of the royal regalia of the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia. It is dressed as a Malay keris and considered a Malay keris.
Your are obviously quite good at woodworking and i would hate to deprive you of the pleasure of creating a new sheath for this blade if that is your choice and desire. I certainly wish i had your skill set as i have a couple of underdressed Bali keris that i would love to create sheaths for, especially if i could produce a traditional looking Bali gayaman as accurately as you seem to be able to do. But if this "Celebes" keris were mine i would consider it a Celebes keris (though recognizing that it's blade does come from Jawa) and be done with it.

A. G. Maisey · 14th January 2012, 07:56 AM

Well put David, and just about my sentiments.

Ben can I make a suggestion?

Why not try making a keris from wood?

Several of my better items have alternate sets of dress, usually the old palace dress that they came in, which is invariably functional, quite plain, and sometimes with damage, then they have dress that I commissioned for them to the highest current standards. I usually keep these items with their modern dress, but have had copies of the blades made in wood to occupy the old dress --- something like the Japanese idea.

This is not a Javanese practice, its just something that pleases me. It means I can have the original dress on display, whilst keeping the keris or tombak itself safely stored.

13th January 2012, 07:42 PM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi Detlef and Rick, I don´t think i will use this sheath now that i know the blade is Javanese, it´s a good fit, but i don´t like it, i´ll think i have to make one more sheath I can´t give you an explanation why i don´t like to have a blade and sheath that are not from the same area, it´s just my idea. And hopefully someday i find a Bugis blade for this sheath. Thanks for your opinion! regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 08:35 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I would leave this keris as it is. I had the same idea as Rick, leave the pesi as it is and keep this ukiran. The blade however might be a javanese blade. Javanese blades where highly apreciated, brought to these areas and mounted in Bugis or Celebes dress. The javanese blades where so much apreciated that blades where even forged in these areas after javanese examples

13th January 2012, 09:00 PM	#3
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi Henk, You guys are giving me a hard time , just kidding, i appreciate the opinions you've given. I know that it's something thats not unusual, but why am i trying to give the lonely blade's a sheath that would fit for the area they come from, if i didn't take notice of it with this one? I am not in a hurry, because i,m still busy with the other sheaths, so i have time to think about it. regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 10:51 PM	#6
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	It looks like i am overruled here, i reckon i am the only one with this strange way of thinking But it definitely made me to give it a second taught! Thanks Marco regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 11:13 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Hello Ben, Nice keris. The fit in the scabbard looks good. So I am also in favour of keeping it as it is. I would probably even not straighten the peksi unless it would give an inproper fitting of the hilt. As for turning this into a javanese keris ? Why bother, when there are plenty of nice javanese keris available. Expand your collection find a nice javanese keris in javanese dress. Best regards, Willem

13th January 2012, 11:15 PM	#8
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	David, I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade, OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it. It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either. I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's. But these are the things that are so great about this forum, everyone give there honest opinion, and i respect that fully. regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 11:31 PM	#9
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	thanks Willem, I was going to straighten the pesi for the Javanese sheath and hilt, but when i read all the response it's not a good idea You know Willem not everyone is the same position, the only way for me to expand my collection is the way i do now, buying blades and make a sheath an urikan, maybe not the real thing, but for me it will do. My little collection exist of almost all Javanese keris, so that is not the point best regards, Ben

14th January 2012, 12:09 AM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hi Ben, can you give us a picture from up when the blade is inside the sheath? And as well a look inside the sheath mouth without blade? BTW, the Bugis sheath is very very nice! Best, Detlef

14th January 2012, 07:56 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Well put David, and just about my sentiments. Ben can I make a suggestion? Why not try making a keris from wood? Several of my better items have alternate sets of dress, usually the old palace dress that they came in, which is invariably functional, quite plain, and sometimes with damage, then they have dress that I commissioned for them to the highest current standards. I usually keep these items with their modern dress, but have had copies of the blades made in wood to occupy the old dress --- something like the Japanese idea. This is not a Javanese practice, its just something that pleases me. It means I can have the original dress on display, whilst keeping the keris or tombak itself safely stored.