Late Gothic Crossbows and Accouterments

Micke D · 12th January 2012, 04:02 PM

Hi Michael!

Thank you for the nice words and the welcome

, but I think I still have a lot more learning to do about my special interest, “Late Gothic horn bow Crossbows and Accouterments”!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!!

Do you think he is willing to testament it to me?

I guess that maple is a better choice than lime, I think that lime wood is probably a bit too soft for a crossbow tiller.

I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type. The tiller wood on this crossbow is stained to have a pear/cherry color and not the natural light color of maple, but I think that almost all crossbow tillers were stained during medieval times, (and maybe later also). This crossbow has some odd inlays and a unique type of dotted pattern on the bow, but I think it is authentic.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Matchlock · 13th January 2012, 06:50 PM

Hi Micke,

You are completely right about the Soest crossbow, this was the one I meant.

Nevertheless, we know many paintings with white, unvarnished crossbow tillers and arquebuses. I am conviced that in times of war, wood on weapons was only meant to survive for few days or weeks, at best. Then the stocks were broken at best and replaced. Even in Thirty Yeras War paintings, we notice white stocks on both matchlock and wheellock guns. I guess, due to their quick consumption they were just not worth staining.
In my collection, a ca. 1645 Austrian matchlock musket is preserved with white (now heavily patinated) beechwood stock. It came from the Styrian castle of Schloss Frondsberg, from where about 15 similar muskets were sold via Tom Del Mar a couple of years ago, all in the same untouched condition with rust patinated iron parts and unstained stocks, with all the traces of original carving still visible.
A few images attached.

What's even more, I own the earliest known completelety preserved gun in the world, High Gothic, ca. 1400, the lock mechnism and hook being working time alterations of ca. 1430. Its crude oak stock much resembles a compemporary crossbow tiller (!), it is of heavily patinated brownish gray surface and shows no traces of staining whatsoever.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun

Remember: crosssbow bolts (quarrels) were an absolute mass production and certainly not stained originally - and look at their dark colored oak or ash surfaces now!

As to limewood, it is not only soft and easy to carve but at the same time very tough. As I mentioned various times, most early 16th c. arquebus stocks were made of limewood, as their very special scent of incense denotes.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 13th January 2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micke D

Hi Michael!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!!

Do you think he is willing to testament it to me?

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Hi Micke,

Most of his collection used to be in mine before we got to know each other and I decided on concentrating on earliest firearms and accouterments, which turned out to totally absorb my time, knowledge and money ...

I'll make contacts between the two of you though.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 13th January 2012, 11:20 PM

Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

Matchlock · 14th January 2012, 12:14 AM

Hi 'Nando,

As I said: take off the outcurved sides of the wood with a raw rasp to smoothen them, then touch them with glue and apply a rough cord binding. You may then stain the hemp binding brown with wood stain. All that hasn't to be done though to make your Katzbalger look good and authentic. It already does, at least to me.

Did you soak the iron parts in olive oil? Smoothen them just lightly with 600 grain paper and oil them!!! You will be overwhelmed!!!!

BTW, are you sure your post was placed in the right thread, my friend?

Best,
Michl

fernando · 14th January 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

BTW, are you sure your post was placed in the right thread, my friend?

You are obviously right, Michl

.
I have already moved your and my post to the correct thread

.

Matchlock · 18th January 2012, 03:00 PM

Hi Micke,

This is the by far earliest known dated but composite cranequin: 1474 and a Gothic trefoil decoration (three punch marks) on the ratched bar, which is doubtlessly the earliest part of the cranequin. The date is struck in correct Late Gothic cyphers, and the lichen-like patina seems absolutely correct to me.
The short length of the bar (without the belt hook) of only about 34 cm is also a Late Gothic phenomenon, and so is the shape of the claws. The gear box seems to be a primitive 17th c. addition when this cranequin was possibly re-used onsome farm or so. The long and straight iron handle also shows Gothic style elements and might well have originally belonged.

It was sold for about 600 euro at a Danish auction house in November 2010, maybe not exactly the real deal for an advanced collector because of the crude alteration.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th January 2012, 02:57 PM

A fine piece of period artwork, a psalter illumination of ca. 1300-10, Lake Constance area, Southern Germany, showing scenes from the life of St. Katharina of Alexandria.

Please note the reinforcements of the bow.

Best,
Michael

13th January 2012, 06:50 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Micke, You are completely right about the Soest crossbow, this was the one I meant. Nevertheless, we know many paintings with white, unvarnished crossbow tillers and arquebuses. I am conviced that in times of war, wood on weapons was only meant to survive for few days or weeks, at best. Then the stocks were broken at best and replaced. Even in Thirty Yeras War paintings, we notice white stocks on both matchlock and wheellock guns. I guess, due to their quick consumption they were just not worth staining. In my collection, a ca. 1645 Austrian matchlock musket is preserved with white (now heavily patinated) beechwood stock. It came from the Styrian castle of Schloss Frondsberg, from where about 15 similar muskets were sold via Tom Del Mar a couple of years ago, all in the same untouched condition with rust patinated iron parts and unstained stocks, with all the traces of original carving still visible. A few images attached. What's even more, I own the earliest known completelety preserved gun in the world, High Gothic, ca. 1400, the lock mechnism and hook being working time alterations of ca. 1430. Its crude oak stock much resembles a compemporary crossbow tiller (!), it is of heavily patinated brownish gray surface and shows no traces of staining whatsoever. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun Remember: crosssbow bolts (quarrels) were an absolute mass production and certainly not stained originally - and look at their dark colored oak or ash surfaces now! As to limewood, it is not only soft and easy to carve but at the same time very tough. As I mentioned various times, most early 16th c. arquebus stocks were made of limewood, as their very special scent of incense denotes. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 13th January 2012 at 10:53 PM.

14th January 2012, 12:14 AM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, As I said: take off the outcurved sides of the wood with a raw rasp to smoothen them, then touch them with glue and apply a rough cord binding. You may then stain the hemp binding brown with wood stain. All that hasn't to be done though to make your Katzbalger look good and authentic. It already does, at least to me. Did you soak the iron parts in olive oil? Smoothen them just lightly with 600 grain paper and oil them!!! You will be overwhelmed!!!! BTW, are you sure your post was placed in the right thread, my friend? Best, Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 14th January 2012 at 06:50 PM.

18th January 2012, 03:00 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Micke, This is the by far earliest known dated but composite cranequin: 1474 and a Gothic trefoil decoration (three punch marks) on the ratched bar, which is doubtlessly the earliest part of the cranequin. The date is struck in correct Late Gothic cyphers, and the lichen-like patina seems absolutely correct to me. The short length of the bar (without the belt hook) of only about 34 cm is also a Late Gothic phenomenon, and so is the shape of the claws. The gear box seems to be a primitive 17th c. addition when this cranequin was possibly re-used onsome farm or so. The long and straight iron handle also shows Gothic style elements and might well have originally belonged. It was sold for about 600 euro at a Danish auction house in November 2010, maybe not exactly the real deal for an advanced collector because of the crude alteration. Best, Michael Attached Images

20th January 2012, 02:57 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A fine piece of period artwork, a psalter illumination of ca. 1300-10, Lake Constance area, Southern Germany, showing scenes from the life of St. Katharina of Alexandria. Please note the reinforcements of the bow. Best, Michael Attached Images

12th January 2012, 04:02 PM	#1
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Hi Michael! Thank you for the nice words and the welcome , but I think I still have a lot more learning to do about my special interest, “Late Gothic horn bow Crossbows and Accouterments”! I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!! Do you think he is willing to testament it to me? I guess that maple is a better choice than lime, I think that lime wood is probably a bit too soft for a crossbow tiller. I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type. The tiller wood on this crossbow is stained to have a pear/cherry color and not the natural light color of maple, but I think that almost all crossbow tillers were stained during medieval times, (and maybe later also). This crossbow has some odd inlays and a unique type of dotted pattern on the bow, but I think it is authentic. Micke Dahlström, Stockholm Lockbow Society, Sweden

13th January 2012, 11:20 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555