Manding sword with German blade

thinreadline · 9th January 2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Nice piece! Always been intrigued why so many of these military sabre blades show up in Manding pieces but so few show up in kaskara or takouba mounts. Even though there are enough curved takouba and kaskara to illustrate that they weren't adverse to the occasional curved blade.

Markings sound particularly intriguing, a pity they are too faint to photograph easily. One idea would be to rub a little flour or other white powder into the marks and you might be able to get a photo of the outline that way and still easily clean up afterwards. Assuming there's enough indentation in the marks.

Thanks Iain .. just tried the flour technique but sadly the markings are just too faint to be picked out . They are so clear under a hand lens that it is frustrating not to be able to photograph them !

Iain · 9th January 2012, 12:07 PM

Can be worth a try photographing through the hand lens. Just hold the lens right up to the front of the lens of the camera, might be able to focus still.

Mefidk · 9th January 2012, 12:34 PM

Unless you have already tried it you could try placing the light source obliquely to the blade. If there is any kind of depression in the pattern then some of it should come up. Works with bulb and a tripod support or a remote flash. Lines running parallel to the light are not visible, but if its drawing-like that might not matter too much. Takes a bit of messing about to get this right, but it works well when it works.
Chris

thinreadline · 9th January 2012, 01:08 PM

Thanks Iain & Mefidk .. have tried your suggestions and it has produced some results albeit poor. Re the makers name. OK , its not readable but at least it is clear that it is European .

Iain · 9th January 2012, 02:56 PM

Thanks for the pictures, can more or less make out the marks now. Very odd, have to wonder where this blade was destined for originally. Any chance the Native American scene was added later? Or does it look original to the blade?

I'm afraid I don't know much about Holler as a maker except that the firm produced a lot of WWII era blades.

thinreadline · 9th January 2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for the pictures, can more or less make out the marks now. Very odd, have to wonder where this blade was destined for originally. Any chance the Native American scene was added later? Or does it look original to the blade?

I'm afraid I don't know much about Holler as a maker except that the firm produced a lot of WWII era blades.

It does look contemporary with the blade ... looking on the internet I found an American dealer in American Civil War swords who had a Confederate sabre with a similar blade made by Holler .. so maybe it is ex ACW .

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2012, 11:48 PM

This one has an intriguing tale, and as we always say, these weapons usually do if we care to look hard enough.
The Solingen firm FW HOLLER indeed was registered 1866 (Walter, 1973, p.060-063) but is likely part of reconfiguring and reorganizing of firms around these times from the earlier Holler company.
Under these initials the firm apparantly had agents in London, William Meyerstern & Co. operating at Love Lane, Ward St. 1870-1887, but remained listed there until 1895.

On another thread just posted with a Brazilian espada ("Spanish Colonial thread) with the maker Carl Jurmann (1848-1868) Solingen, I noted that this makers blades were exported by Maas & Schoverling to the firm of Herman Boker, a N.Y. hardware and sword dealer in 1861. (Bezdek, p.110).

It is interesting that in a footnote in the well travelled Briggs article we have been using there is a reference to blades imported into the Saharan networks coming from America. He notes he has never substantiated this particular aspect but perhaps this might explain if these German made blades were coming into the U.S. at New York....and as noted into other areas supplying Confederate forces with swords as well.

The British were well established as suppliers to the Confederate forces via routes into the Caribbean and there are patterns of British swords known specific to these orders such as M1853 sabres by Isaac & Co.

These waters of course were part of the 'Spanish Main' including with trade from North Africa and the colonies there. French trade was also included and German trade blades often appear on French swords. While many French military blades typically are found on the Manding sabres, they also occur on Tuareg sabres of takouba form (aljuinar) usually in Mali and Burkina Faso.
This is why these blades are so commonly among these swords as far as I have considered.

I am unclear why a Confederate sword would have an FW HOLLER blade if they did not begin using that initial until 1866, but it does seem there was a Holler supplying sabre blades among earlier blades usually to Union swords though. I have also seen Walscheid and Weyersberg union sabres, in fact I believe the M1840 used by the Union was initially produced in Solingen.

With the interesting scene engraved on the blade, Germany did have a distinct affinity for the American wild west, and quite likely this blade may have been intended perhaps for post Civil War market officers or other fraternal military sword use. Again, somehow it ended up in the trade networks to North Africa.

9th January 2012, 01:08 PM	#4
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Thanks Iain & Mefidk .. have tried your suggestions and it has produced some results albeit poor. Re the makers name. OK , its not readable but at least it is clear that it is European . Attached Images

9th January 2012, 12:07 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Can be worth a try photographing through the hand lens. Just hold the lens right up to the front of the lens of the camera, might be able to focus still.

9th January 2012, 12:34 PM	#3
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Unless you have already tried it you could try placing the light source obliquely to the blade. If there is any kind of depression in the pattern then some of it should come up. Works with bulb and a tripod support or a remote flash. Lines running parallel to the light are not visible, but if its drawing-like that might not matter too much. Takes a bit of messing about to get this right, but it works well when it works. Chris

9th January 2012, 02:56 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Thanks for the pictures, can more or less make out the marks now. Very odd, have to wonder where this blade was destined for originally. Any chance the Native American scene was added later? Or does it look original to the blade? I'm afraid I don't know much about Holler as a maker except that the firm produced a lot of WWII era blades.

9th January 2012, 11:48 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	This one has an intriguing tale, and as we always say, these weapons usually do if we care to look hard enough. The Solingen firm FW HOLLER indeed was registered 1866 (Walter, 1973, p.060-063) but is likely part of reconfiguring and reorganizing of firms around these times from the earlier Holler company. Under these initials the firm apparantly had agents in London, William Meyerstern & Co. operating at Love Lane, Ward St. 1870-1887, but remained listed there until 1895. On another thread just posted with a Brazilian espada ("Spanish Colonial thread) with the maker Carl Jurmann (1848-1868) Solingen, I noted that this makers blades were exported by Maas & Schoverling to the firm of Herman Boker, a N.Y. hardware and sword dealer in 1861. (Bezdek, p.110). It is interesting that in a footnote in the well travelled Briggs article we have been using there is a reference to blades imported into the Saharan networks coming from America. He notes he has never substantiated this particular aspect but perhaps this might explain if these German made blades were coming into the U.S. at New York....and as noted into other areas supplying Confederate forces with swords as well. The British were well established as suppliers to the Confederate forces via routes into the Caribbean and there are patterns of British swords known specific to these orders such as M1853 sabres by Isaac & Co. These waters of course were part of the 'Spanish Main' including with trade from North Africa and the colonies there. French trade was also included and German trade blades often appear on French swords. While many French military blades typically are found on the Manding sabres, they also occur on Tuareg sabres of takouba form (aljuinar) usually in Mali and Burkina Faso. This is why these blades are so commonly among these swords as far as I have considered. I am unclear why a Confederate sword would have an FW HOLLER blade if they did not begin using that initial until 1866, but it does seem there was a Holler supplying sabre blades among earlier blades usually to Union swords though. I have also seen Walscheid and Weyersberg union sabres, in fact I believe the M1840 used by the Union was initially produced in Solingen. With the interesting scene engraved on the blade, Germany did have a distinct affinity for the American wild west, and quite likely this blade may have been intended perhaps for post Civil War market officers or other fraternal military sword use. Again, somehow it ended up in the trade networks to North Africa.