Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

A. G. Maisey · 8th January 2012, 10:38 AM

Jean, when we play the tangguh game there are certain things that I regard as givens.

For example, show me any blade with a Surakarta ron dha, a boto adeg blumbangan, and I'm going to say that it is Surakarta.

It might well not be, but if that is all the evidence I've got, I'll back Surakarta every time, UNTIL I GET IT IN MY HAND.

In my hand, my opinion could well change.

Now, if I am shown a photo of a blade that lacks any definitive characteristics, how is it possible for me to even give a very wild guess as to point of origin? It simply is not. Such a blade could be from anywhere.

Let me hold it, examine it properly, maybe think about it for a couple of days, I might be able to put forward an opinion that I can support. But from a photo? I regret I do not have psychic powers.

Further, the tangguh system was never, ever intended to be applied to low , or even middle quality blades. Everybody who follows this Forum should have realized this by now, as it has been stated a number of times, not only by myself, but also by others.

Its fine to present a complete keris and claim such and such a place as its point of origin. I don't have any problem at all with this. But to try to hang a tangguh on the blade of this keris, when there is absolutely no evidence to support the opinion of the tangguh is just not on.

What virtually everybody in the present day fails to realize is that the tangguh system was not devised for the purpose of being able to identify old blades, stick a label on them, and put them in the right pigeon hole. The purpose of the system was far more serious than that, for the people concerned. I will not expand on this remark, as I have a paper in the pipeline.

Yes, a lot of blades that entered Europe early were obtained in Cirebon and Banten, but this does not mean that they were made there. There was a very active trade network throughout Jawa and the rest of S.E. Asia long before and continuing past the 16th & 17th centuries. The major power in Jawa in the 17th century was Mataram, at least some of these early blades collected in Banten and Cirebon must be from Mataram. It would be illogical to think otherwise.

Jean · 8th January 2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, when we play the tangguh game there are certain things that I regard as givens.
Yes, a lot of blades that entered Europe early were obtained in Cirebon and Banten, but this does not mean that they were made there. There was a very active trade network throughout Jawa and the rest of S.E. Asia long before and continuing past the 16th & 17th centuries. The major power in Jawa in the 17th century was Mataram, at least some of these early blades collected in Banten and Cirebon must be from Mataram. It would be illogical to think otherwise.

Hello Alan,
Actually I am not playing the tangguh game (estimated manufacturing period and area of origin) for these long straight blades which I showed since they are not very old and there are no reliable indicators for tangguh Cirebon as you say, but simply to confirm their area of origin; this should be much simpler like for Balinese or Minangkabau krisses, etc. Unfortunately I never visited the area so I have no personal evidence to offer.

Regarding the blades collected during the 16th/ 17th century especially in Banten, there is evidence from the travellers that at least some of them were made locally. These luk blades are very strong and thick and do not look like at all the contemporary ones attributed to tangguh Mataram and I find it very disturbing for accepting the indicators attributed to tangguh early Mataram (or Majapahit since the smiths from Banten were supposed to have migrated from the collapsed Majapahit kingdom).
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2012, 05:32 AM

Jean, as soon as we begin to discuss the origin of a blade we are playing tangguh.

Tangguh is not dependent upon age, it is a system of classification, and it applies to all periods up until the present day.

If your objective is to confirm geographic area of origin, then you are most certainly playing tangguh.

There is no way that an area of origin opinion can be given except by reference to the indicators used in tangguh.

In respect of the blades so far shown in this thread, we have a number of blades of varying quality, varying age, varying state of preservation, and varying style and form. I am totally unable to say whether one or more of these blades originated in the Cirebon area . I simply do not know, and at present I have no way of knowing.

I do recall that Gonjo Wulung appears to have some knowledge of blades that at the present time are generally accepted as being of Cirebon origin. He may be able to answer your question. I cannot.

Away, and apart from anything else. the system that I learnt does not provide for a Cirebon classification, this system effectively says that Cirebon is pretty unimportant from the perspective of the original purpose of tangguh classification, and thus can be disregarded for practical purposes, it is able to be classified as one of the variations of Pajajaran.

If you wish to confirm origin of the hilts and scabbards, this is a different matter, and to the best of my knowledge I could not disagree with a Cirebon attribution for one of the scabbards, a couple are possibles, one I know as Tegal, one looks rather East Jawa. These are impressions based upon experience, I am not prepared to be absolutely definite in this matter because we are into an area of kerisology that is truly of very, very limited interest to me.

Regarding Banten blades, yes, I think it would be reasonable to assume that some blades were made in Banten, and we do have a reasonably good idea what the characteristics of a Banten blade are.

The practice of blade classification known as tangguh did not begin until well into the colonial period, at which time the blades that were attributed to early Mataram were already around 300 years old. What was being classified as Mataram was in fact only a shadow of Mataram. If we look at Mataram blades that were removed from area of origin when they were still young, we have a totally different blade.

I've said this many times already, but it does bear repetition:-

Tangguh is a system of classification; it uses the names of historical eras or geographic locations as the names of the various classifications; in the case of the recent past those names very probably bear some genuine relationship to the era, and to the geographic location, an example of this would be keris of tangguh Surakarta; in the case of long distant historical eras the name used for the tangguh and the actual historical era very probably have only a passing relationship, one that owes as much to popular belief and court poets as it does to fact.

A great number of Javanese and other keris fanciers will disagree with what I am saying here, and that is their prerogative, but when the various tangguhs are viewed objectively, and any sort of logical association is attempted between the blade and the historic era, the burden of reasonable proof must rest with those who wish tangguh to be a true identification with the relevant historic era.

It is best not to unquestioningly accept a tangguh classification as meaning that the blade to which that tangguh has been assigned did in fact originate in, for example, the realm of Majapahit, during the ascendancy of Majapahit.

When we try to reconcile the Javanese idea of "history" and the past with the Euro-centric idea of history and the past, we can only do so if we adopt a Javanese mindset, and in today's world, it seems to me that more and more Javanese people are moving towards a western mindset, and away from the mindset of their forefathers.

Jean · 9th January 2012, 10:50 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your detailed reply and I am sorry that you had to repeat your views regarding the tangguh classification which I fully share and I admit that I am looking at it with a purely Western historical point of view.
It is clear that the krisses from Cirebon/ Northern Java were not studied in detail and constitute one area of missing kris knowledge. Considering them as one variant of the Pajajaran krisses looks a simplification to me since the Cirebon Sultanate was independent from the 16th century.
I looked into my reference books and the only one referring to the Cirebon krisses in some detail is the Krisdisk from K.S Jensen but he focuses mainly on the hilts, and the kris blades shown are very diversified and some may not originate from Cirebon except the ones from the museums which can be traced back to the 16th/ 17th century. However I found one specimen of a long straight blades similar to mine on page 14 of the Cirebon chapter (figure 29a, lenght 42 cm, and estimated from 19th century). I also found another similar blade in volume 2 of the book "De Kris" from Tammens on page 260 (attributed to Tegal, 47 cm long, and estimated from Majapahit period, haha!). For the meantime and unless somebody can advise otherwise, I will continue to believe that these long straight blades with dapur Tilam Upih and full & indistinct pamor are one of the types of blades from the Cirebon/ Tegal area.
And regarding the distinctive blades brought from Banten and Cirebon to Europe during the 16th & 17th century, I am still waiting a valid theory for linking them with the contemporary Javanese krisses.
I have reached my limits on these subjects, other views will be welcome!
Best regards

PenangsangII · 9th January 2012, 01:47 PM

during Sultan Agung's attempts to capture Batavia from the Dutch, the Jawanese forces were centered in Cirebon/Tegal/Banten. Thus kerises during that period are actually easier to identify, being bigger and longer than normal keris as they were meant for war. This hefty size of kerises were later on called the corok classification. The Makassarese/Buginese, fresh from their defeat in Gowa makassar later on adopted the corok keris as one of their weapons, hence the keris sundang which later on spread to the whole archipelago especially in bugis dominated area in sumatra and kalimantan including southern filipina.

Jean · 9th January 2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

during Sultan Agung's attempts to capture Batavia from the Dutch, the Jawanese forces were centered in Cirebon/Tegal/Banten. Thus kerises during that period are actually easier to identify, being bigger and longer than normal keris as they were meant for war. This hefty size of kerises were later on called the corok classification. The Makassarese/Buginese, fresh from their defeat in Gowa makassar later on adopted the corok keris as one of their weapons, hence the keris sundang which later on spread to the whole archipelago especially in bugis dominated area in sumatra and kalimantan including southern filipina.

Thank you PenangsangII, I knew the term corok but did not know that these strong krisses originated during the 17th century. Effectively the old kris blades from Banten/ Cirebon in the European museums are generally stronger and longer than those attributed to tangguh Mataram (about 40 cm versus 35).
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2012, 07:50 PM

Thanks David.

Now fixed.

Yesterday was a long day.

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2012, 02:17 PM

Yes Jean, I agree, there is somewhat of a hole in understanding of exactly what the characteristics of a Cirebon blade might be. Since the people who wrote the rule book on this game were Javanese, this suggests to me that to the Javanese, Cirebon was not regarded as particularly important to them from the perspective of a tangguh classification for keris which might have originated from that place.

The people who wrote the rule book were not collectors who sought to pigeonhole keris, but Javanese aristocrats who had an entirely different motivation for developing a system of classification. To those people, clearly Cirebon simply did not matter.

Thus, they lumped Cirebon and other places to the west into one basket and called that basket Pajajaran. Yes, agreed, it is a simplification, for the apparent reason that Cirebon was not relevant to those aristocrats.

I think you know my views on identification of blades in European sources, so I'm not going to go there. However, let us look at the straight blades posted to this thread:-

Post #10 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran (now corrected)

Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban

Post # 17 this blade displays some Mataram characteristics, as is usual, it would need to be handled for any certainty

But the important thing is this:- each of these blades is totally different one from the other, to my eye, no similarities at all, except that they are keris and straight. To my eye these keris are total strangers to one another.

Two of the waved blades are similar:- the blade in post #1, and the blade in post # 10.

In respect of the difference in appearance that exists between blades brought from the North Coast of Jawa in the 16th and 17th centuries, and Javanese blades that exist today and are claimed to originate from the same time frame.

What we see today are blades which are only shadows , or ghosts, of the originals. Erosion of material due to tropical climate and repeated cleaning over several hundred years has resulted the frail shadows that we see today.

I have a blade that has the provenance of having been brought to Holland prior to 1800. It is a perfect generic Mataram blade, except for one thing:- it is strong, thick and powerful. Virtually no erosion has occurred.

There is another factor that must be recognized:- simply because these early blades were collected on the North Coast, this does not mean they were made on the North Coast. I think close examination of these blades would result in classifications other than the North Coast for some of them.

Jean, I have no problem at all with anybody believing what he will about origin, or name, or almost anything else with keris. To me, these things are not particularly relevant to my own core interest. Javanese keris people believe that keris of modern form which are classifiable as Kahuripan and Kediri actually originated in those places during the relevant eras. If its OK for these people to believe that, its OK for western collectors to believe whatever they wish to believe. Meanwhile, the really big questions that surround the keris in Jawa and Bali go unrecognized, let alone addressed.

Keris in Jawa are surrounded by belief systems rather than systems based upon knowledge and logic. Why shouldn't western collectors be permitted the same indulgence?

David · 9th January 2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Post #14 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran

Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban

Alan, could you clarify this. You named 2 blades as post #14, but that post only contains one blade.

Jean · 9th January 2012, 05:24 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your interesting reply again and I will just make some minor observations:
You first say that the blade in post # 14 may be from Pajajaran and in next sentence from Tuban, I think that you mean post # 10 may be from Pajajaran and post #14 from Tuban, please confirm.
To my eyes, the blades shown in posts # 10 and # 17 are quite similar (the style of tikel alis for instance), however # 17 is more recent I think, and the differences may only come from the village smiths who made them. If you held # 17 in your hand, you would probably disregard the Mataram classification because of its size (43 cm without peksi). I show you two other similar blades for reference, the first one is 42 cm long and similar to post # 10 and the second one 40 cm long and similar to post# 17 (more recent).
Regarding the differences between the old blades in the European museums and those attributed to contemporary Javanese periods, of course I agree that the erosion should play a part. However the differences in the shape of these two categories of blades (size, luks, kembang kacang, ganja, gandik, etc.) are such that it does not appear to be a sufficient explanation to me, and the pamor should have virtually disappeared from these "ghost" blades, which is not always the case. Of course I assume that the dating and provenance of these krisses in the museums are basically correct, if not from where? (Bali as thought by Bambang Harsrinuksmo?).
And I fully agree with your conclusion....
Best regards
Jean

9th January 2012, 02:17 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jean, I agree, there is somewhat of a hole in understanding of exactly what the characteristics of a Cirebon blade might be. Since the people who wrote the rule book on this game were Javanese, this suggests to me that to the Javanese, Cirebon was not regarded as particularly important to them from the perspective of a tangguh classification for keris which might have originated from that place. The people who wrote the rule book were not collectors who sought to pigeonhole keris, but Javanese aristocrats who had an entirely different motivation for developing a system of classification. To those people, clearly Cirebon simply did not matter. Thus, they lumped Cirebon and other places to the west into one basket and called that basket Pajajaran. Yes, agreed, it is a simplification, for the apparent reason that Cirebon was not relevant to those aristocrats. I think you know my views on identification of blades in European sources, so I'm not going to go there. However, let us look at the straight blades posted to this thread:- Post #10 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran (now corrected) Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban Post # 17 this blade displays some Mataram characteristics, as is usual, it would need to be handled for any certainty But the important thing is this:- each of these blades is totally different one from the other, to my eye, no similarities at all, except that they are keris and straight. To my eye these keris are total strangers to one another. Two of the waved blades are similar:- the blade in post #1, and the blade in post # 10. In respect of the difference in appearance that exists between blades brought from the North Coast of Jawa in the 16th and 17th centuries, and Javanese blades that exist today and are claimed to originate from the same time frame. What we see today are blades which are only shadows , or ghosts, of the originals. Erosion of material due to tropical climate and repeated cleaning over several hundred years has resulted the frail shadows that we see today. I have a blade that has the provenance of having been brought to Holland prior to 1800. It is a perfect generic Mataram blade, except for one thing:- it is strong, thick and powerful. Virtually no erosion has occurred. There is another factor that must be recognized:- simply because these early blades were collected on the North Coast, this does not mean they were made on the North Coast. I think close examination of these blades would result in classifications other than the North Coast for some of them. Jean, I have no problem at all with anybody believing what he will about origin, or name, or almost anything else with keris. To me, these things are not particularly relevant to my own core interest. Javanese keris people believe that keris of modern form which are classifiable as Kahuripan and Kediri actually originated in those places during the relevant eras. If its OK for these people to believe that, its OK for western collectors to believe whatever they wish to believe. Meanwhile, the really big questions that surround the keris in Jawa and Bali go unrecognized, let alone addressed. Keris in Jawa are surrounded by belief systems rather than systems based upon knowledge and logic. Why shouldn't western collectors be permitted the same indulgence? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th January 2012 at 07:49 PM.

8th January 2012, 10:38 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, when we play the tangguh game there are certain things that I regard as givens. For example, show me any blade with a Surakarta ron dha, a boto adeg blumbangan, and I'm going to say that it is Surakarta. It might well not be, but if that is all the evidence I've got, I'll back Surakarta every time, UNTIL I GET IT IN MY HAND. In my hand, my opinion could well change. Now, if I am shown a photo of a blade that lacks any definitive characteristics, how is it possible for me to even give a very wild guess as to point of origin? It simply is not. Such a blade could be from anywhere. Let me hold it, examine it properly, maybe think about it for a couple of days, I might be able to put forward an opinion that I can support. But from a photo? I regret I do not have psychic powers. Further, the tangguh system was never, ever intended to be applied to low , or even middle quality blades. Everybody who follows this Forum should have realized this by now, as it has been stated a number of times, not only by myself, but also by others. Its fine to present a complete keris and claim such and such a place as its point of origin. I don't have any problem at all with this. But to try to hang a tangguh on the blade of this keris, when there is absolutely no evidence to support the opinion of the tangguh is just not on. What virtually everybody in the present day fails to realize is that the tangguh system was not devised for the purpose of being able to identify old blades, stick a label on them, and put them in the right pigeon hole. The purpose of the system was far more serious than that, for the people concerned. I will not expand on this remark, as I have a paper in the pipeline. Yes, a lot of blades that entered Europe early were obtained in Cirebon and Banten, but this does not mean that they were made there. There was a very active trade network throughout Jawa and the rest of S.E. Asia long before and continuing past the 16th & 17th centuries. The major power in Jawa in the 17th century was Mataram, at least some of these early blades collected in Banten and Cirebon must be from Mataram. It would be illogical to think otherwise.

9th January 2012, 05:32 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, as soon as we begin to discuss the origin of a blade we are playing tangguh. Tangguh is not dependent upon age, it is a system of classification, and it applies to all periods up until the present day. If your objective is to confirm geographic area of origin, then you are most certainly playing tangguh. There is no way that an area of origin opinion can be given except by reference to the indicators used in tangguh. In respect of the blades so far shown in this thread, we have a number of blades of varying quality, varying age, varying state of preservation, and varying style and form. I am totally unable to say whether one or more of these blades originated in the Cirebon area . I simply do not know, and at present I have no way of knowing. I do recall that Gonjo Wulung appears to have some knowledge of blades that at the present time are generally accepted as being of Cirebon origin. He may be able to answer your question. I cannot. Away, and apart from anything else. the system that I learnt does not provide for a Cirebon classification, this system effectively says that Cirebon is pretty unimportant from the perspective of the original purpose of tangguh classification, and thus can be disregarded for practical purposes, it is able to be classified as one of the variations of Pajajaran. If you wish to confirm origin of the hilts and scabbards, this is a different matter, and to the best of my knowledge I could not disagree with a Cirebon attribution for one of the scabbards, a couple are possibles, one I know as Tegal, one looks rather East Jawa. These are impressions based upon experience, I am not prepared to be absolutely definite in this matter because we are into an area of kerisology that is truly of very, very limited interest to me. Regarding Banten blades, yes, I think it would be reasonable to assume that some blades were made in Banten, and we do have a reasonably good idea what the characteristics of a Banten blade are. The practice of blade classification known as tangguh did not begin until well into the colonial period, at which time the blades that were attributed to early Mataram were already around 300 years old. What was being classified as Mataram was in fact only a shadow of Mataram. If we look at Mataram blades that were removed from area of origin when they were still young, we have a totally different blade. I've said this many times already, but it does bear repetition:- Tangguh is a system of classification; it uses the names of historical eras or geographic locations as the names of the various classifications; in the case of the recent past those names very probably bear some genuine relationship to the era, and to the geographic location, an example of this would be keris of tangguh Surakarta; in the case of long distant historical eras the name used for the tangguh and the actual historical era very probably have only a passing relationship, one that owes as much to popular belief and court poets as it does to fact. A great number of Javanese and other keris fanciers will disagree with what I am saying here, and that is their prerogative, but when the various tangguhs are viewed objectively, and any sort of logical association is attempted between the blade and the historic era, the burden of reasonable proof must rest with those who wish tangguh to be a true identification with the relevant historic era. It is best not to unquestioningly accept a tangguh classification as meaning that the blade to which that tangguh has been assigned did in fact originate in, for example, the realm of Majapahit, during the ascendancy of Majapahit. When we try to reconcile the Javanese idea of "history" and the past with the Euro-centric idea of history and the past, we can only do so if we adopt a Javanese mindset, and in today's world, it seems to me that more and more Javanese people are moving towards a western mindset, and away from the mindset of their forefathers.

9th January 2012, 10:50 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your detailed reply and I am sorry that you had to repeat your views regarding the tangguh classification which I fully share and I admit that I am looking at it with a purely Western historical point of view. It is clear that the krisses from Cirebon/ Northern Java were not studied in detail and constitute one area of missing kris knowledge. Considering them as one variant of the Pajajaran krisses looks a simplification to me since the Cirebon Sultanate was independent from the 16th century. I looked into my reference books and the only one referring to the Cirebon krisses in some detail is the Krisdisk from K.S Jensen but he focuses mainly on the hilts, and the kris blades shown are very diversified and some may not originate from Cirebon except the ones from the museums which can be traced back to the 16th/ 17th century. However I found one specimen of a long straight blades similar to mine on page 14 of the Cirebon chapter (figure 29a, lenght 42 cm, and estimated from 19th century). I also found another similar blade in volume 2 of the book "De Kris" from Tammens on page 260 (attributed to Tegal, 47 cm long, and estimated from Majapahit period, haha!). For the meantime and unless somebody can advise otherwise, I will continue to believe that these long straight blades with dapur Tilam Upih and full & indistinct pamor are one of the types of blades from the Cirebon/ Tegal area. And regarding the distinctive blades brought from Banten and Cirebon to Europe during the 16th & 17th century, I am still waiting a valid theory for linking them with the contemporary Javanese krisses. I have reached my limits on these subjects, other views will be welcome! Best regards

9th January 2012, 01:47 PM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	during Sultan Agung's attempts to capture Batavia from the Dutch, the Jawanese forces were centered in Cirebon/Tegal/Banten. Thus kerises during that period are actually easier to identify, being bigger and longer than normal keris as they were meant for war. This hefty size of kerises were later on called the corok classification. The Makassarese/Buginese, fresh from their defeat in Gowa makassar later on adopted the corok keris as one of their weapons, hence the keris sundang which later on spread to the whole archipelago especially in bugis dominated area in sumatra and kalimantan including southern filipina.

9th January 2012, 07:50 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks David. Now fixed. Yesterday was a long day.

9th January 2012, 05:24 PM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your interesting reply again and I will just make some minor observations: You first say that the blade in post # 14 may be from Pajajaran and in next sentence from Tuban, I think that you mean post # 10 may be from Pajajaran and post #14 from Tuban, please confirm. To my eyes, the blades shown in posts # 10 and # 17 are quite similar (the style of tikel alis for instance), however # 17 is more recent I think, and the differences may only come from the village smiths who made them. If you held # 17 in your hand, you would probably disregard the Mataram classification because of its size (43 cm without peksi). I show you two other similar blades for reference, the first one is 42 cm long and similar to post # 10 and the second one 40 cm long and similar to post# 17 (more recent). Regarding the differences between the old blades in the European museums and those attributed to contemporary Javanese periods, of course I agree that the erosion should play a part. However the differences in the shape of these two categories of blades (size, luks, kembang kacang, ganja, gandik, etc.) are such that it does not appear to be a sufficient explanation to me, and the pamor should have virtually disappeared from these "ghost" blades, which is not always the case. Of course I assume that the dating and provenance of these krisses in the museums are basically correct, if not from where? (Bali as thought by Bambang Harsrinuksmo?). And I fully agree with your conclusion.... Best regards Jean Attached Images