Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

Harley · 6th January 2012, 11:34 AM

That is a nice surprise!
Thank you again Alan, you're of the greatest help to me.

Hello Amuk Murugul,

To my untrained eyes they where similar, but it says more about me then about the wilah's i 'm afraid

I don't think they are longer as usual, this one is 35,5 cm(I forgot to mention).
I can Imagen that it's so difficult to tell something about the blades and even more when there is some kind of marriage between to different styles.
Thank you very much for your contribution!

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 08:42 PM

Amuk, I cannot disagree that the second blade that has been posted may be able to be classified as Cirebon, however, in the system of classification that I was taught, Cirebon is not recognized as a classification.

The relevant classification that includes Cirebon is Pajajaran, and Pajajaran is sub-divided into at least three sub classifications, which are numbered, not named.

However, I am very reluctant to identify this second blade as Pajajaran, because although there are some indicators which point to Pajajaran, for instance, the bata rubuh blumbangan, there are too many conflicting indicators, and as the blade is out of stain it is impossible to appraise the nature of the pamor, which is a key indicator for Pajajaran keris.

Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else.

The first blade posted is quite dissimilar to the second blade. My inclination is to place it as East Jawa, but the quality of the blade is really too low to permit any sort of realistic attempt at classification, and from the photos I cannot even guess what the material might be like. In fact, it could be from anywhere, so if you feel inclined to place it in West Jawa, or Sunda, I will respect your opinion, but in the absence of indicators it is difficult for me to understand how you came to that opinion.

Jean · 7th January 2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else.

Alan,
The indicators of the blades attributed to tangguh Cirebon are described in the EK (page 463) but they are not very distinctive nor matching with the strong Cirebon blades especially.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2012, 10:41 AM

Yes Jean, there is a supposed mention in EK, along with other tangguh, but its not really the definitive sort of thing that I'm used to. I'm afraid that virtually all the people I know well in Jawa who are associated with keris tend to take EK with a fairly considerable grain of salt.

I suppose I should not have used "never", but I very often automatically discount, and thus forget, things that are not worth remembering.

Jean · 7th January 2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jean, there is a supposed mention in EK, along with other tangguh, but its not really the definitive sort of thing that I'm used to. I'm afraid that virtually all the people I know well in Jawa who are associated with keris tend to take EK with a fairly considerable grain of salt.

I suppose I should not have used "never", but I very often automatically discount, and thus forget, things that are not worth remembering.

OK Alan, I understand and agree especially in this case as advised earlier; Would you consider that the 2 blades shown on the attached pictures are representative from Cirebon/ Northern Java? Both have old blades and old matching sheaths. The first one measures 47 cm without peksi and the second one 37 cm.
Best regards

PenangsangII · 7th January 2012, 02:23 PM

from what I know, Harley's blade could be east Jawa, Madiun area. Look at the luk sedheng construction as opposed to Cirebon's shallow luks.

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

OK Alan, I understand and agree especially in this case as advised earlier; Would you consider that the 2 blades shown on the attached pictures are representative from Cirebon/ Northern Java? Both have old blades and old matching sheaths. The first one measures 47 cm without peksi and the second one 37 cm.
Best regards

This thread is on the way to become very very interesting!

Your second keris is a beauty Jean and to my humble opinion it is in all parts a genuine Cirebon/North-West coast keris. Like Penangsang write are the shallow luks are a good sign.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 03:16 PM

This keris I bought recently and think that it is a genuine Cirebon keris as well. Notice again the shallow luks.

7th January 2012, 03:16 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	This keris I bought recently and think that it is a genuine Cirebon keris as well. Notice again the shallow luks. Attached Images

6th January 2012, 11:34 AM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	That is a nice surprise! Thank you again Alan, you're of the greatest help to me. Hello Amuk Murugul, To my untrained eyes they where similar, but it says more about me then about the wilah's i 'm afraid I don't think they are longer as usual, this one is 35,5 cm(I forgot to mention). I can Imagen that it's so difficult to tell something about the blades and even more when there is some kind of marriage between to different styles. Thank you very much for your contribution! regards, Ben

6th January 2012, 08:42 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Amuk, I cannot disagree that the second blade that has been posted may be able to be classified as Cirebon, however, in the system of classification that I was taught, Cirebon is not recognized as a classification. The relevant classification that includes Cirebon is Pajajaran, and Pajajaran is sub-divided into at least three sub classifications, which are numbered, not named. However, I am very reluctant to identify this second blade as Pajajaran, because although there are some indicators which point to Pajajaran, for instance, the bata rubuh blumbangan, there are too many conflicting indicators, and as the blade is out of stain it is impossible to appraise the nature of the pamor, which is a key indicator for Pajajaran keris. Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else. The first blade posted is quite dissimilar to the second blade. My inclination is to place it as East Jawa, but the quality of the blade is really too low to permit any sort of realistic attempt at classification, and from the photos I cannot even guess what the material might be like. In fact, it could be from anywhere, so if you feel inclined to place it in West Jawa, or Sunda, I will respect your opinion, but in the absence of indicators it is difficult for me to understand how you came to that opinion.

7th January 2012, 10:41 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jean, there is a supposed mention in EK, along with other tangguh, but its not really the definitive sort of thing that I'm used to. I'm afraid that virtually all the people I know well in Jawa who are associated with keris tend to take EK with a fairly considerable grain of salt. I suppose I should not have used "never", but I very often automatically discount, and thus forget, things that are not worth remembering.

7th January 2012, 02:23 PM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	from what I know, Harley's blade could be east Jawa, Madiun area. Look at the luk sedheng construction as opposed to Cirebon's shallow luks.