A new yataghan

delor · 27th December 2011, 11:46 PM

The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated.

Salaams delor ~ I think that is just so very impressive... The photo record is superb ....Magnificent work ! Some of the best workshop technique I have ever seen.... Shukran !!

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 02:20 PM

Delor,
Good work overall, considering the requirements. I understand that you've been asked not to engrave/chisel the fittings, and to bronze-cast and plate instead, etc. Essentially, your client asked for a "custom job" based on his/her preferences, not on “historical” accuracy. Speaking of fittings: from standpoint of comparing to traditional techniques - they cannot even be compared, other than based on shape and overall look, which is not wise thing to do. I do not like the fittings, they look like furniture embellishments from the hardware store (the better ones have finer and crispier details, sorry). The scabbard itself is not of proper form for yataghan! in my opinion - it falls short on these two points.

delor · 28th December 2011, 03:27 PM

Alex,
you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy.

The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later).

The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate !

Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did.
At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences.

Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help...
... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them).

Kind regards,
Bernard

PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 03:47 PM

Bernard,
A classical Yataghan's scabbard should be of full/round, oval-like shape to accomodate approximately 1/4 of the handle length when the blade is fully inserted. The scabbard's profile should resemble the profile of the blade, but be slightly wider at the throat side to fit the blade's tip upon insertion. I may have some pictures of original yat scabbard, disassembled. will post later.

delor · 28th December 2011, 04:07 PM

Thanks Alex,
yes, I made it narrower at the throat side because I felt it would have been really too large to accomotate the handle itself. I think this bring us back to the point of having casted parts : only embossed metalwork would allow an overall thiner aspect and would make possible the genuine scabbard design, because the wood thickness requirement would be less.

Still remains to me the question of the general scabbard bending. Could you please have a look at the attached photos and tell me if it looks OK for you or if you see something that should have been made differently ?
Of course your own photos are more than welcome. Will be very profitable to me as scabbard is not what photos usually focus on.

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2011, 04:40 PM

This is absolutely astonishingly beautiful craftmanship Bernard, and thank you so much for sharing the developing work along with your thoughts, ideas and steps. It is fascinating to learn more on how this weapon was produced and the details on things like which type of ivory to use, something I would not have even thought of.

Alex thank you for the valuable input as well, and as Bernard has noted, this is exactly what was hoped for...to add historical context to this weapon which is a masterfully produced interpretation of the original forms. As an arms historian I admit I have always had reservations about 'reproductions' and 'replicas' as they are clearly not actual vintage items, however this has given me the opportunity to truly appreciate the work presented in these.

Absolutely outstanding, and well presented Bernard, with excellent discussion!
Thank you guys,

All best regards,
Jim

Dom · 2nd February 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

Hi Bernard
don't be worry about your English ...
our friends here, are customary now to read me, since years

anyway, I'm taking the opportunity to congratulate you, for your amazing acheivement,
it's worthy of a "Chef d'oeuvre" to reach the rank of "Master"

toutes mes félicitations les plus sincères

à +

Dom

ariel · 4th February 2012, 01:44 PM

Delor,
I can only shake my head in astonishment...
You did a marvelous job, and with all the points astutely noticed by Alex, this is an example of a wonderful craftsmanship. My hat is off to you!!!

On the other hand, the part I do not get is the wish of the customer to have a modern ( although highly artistic) replica of a yataghan. I have no idea how much it cost him ( you've earned every penny) and how long he had to wait for the finished product, but I bet that for half the price he could have bought himself an excellent genuine and truly old one. No matter how great is the craftsmanship, the aura of history cannot be recreated.

I am proud of you, but cannot understand him.

fspic · 4th February 2012, 03:24 PM

Well, it won't be used in reenactments of the Siege of Vienna, that's for sure! On the other hand he probably wanted a modern custom show knife based upon that form.

delor · 4th February 2012, 03:28 PM

Dom, thank you very much ...and merci beaucoup !
I'm far from being a "master" as were some of the craftsmen of the ancient times, but it's the goal I'm trying to reach...

Ariel, thanks a lot. I do understand your comments, and I'm not trying to recreate the "aura" of genuire arms, that would be very difficult anyway, and certainly not respectable trying to fool people by making fake copies.
You should think of the customer as somebody who wishes to have a brand new and beautiful sword. And he wants it to be custom made, exactly fitting his will. He's not different from the customer who bought the same one, a few centuries ago. He's also aware of the History and traditions, but he is not a collector of antique artefacts. He likes beautiful old clothes but wants a new habit for himself...

fspic, you get it..

And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him...so my only wish is that my yatagan could look the same in XXIIIth century as the one you're collecting today !

ariel · 5th February 2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him

Well said! You did shake hands with Ahmet Tekelu and did it with pride and honor.

As to the buyer.... Well, people collect what they want and there is no accounting for the taste. I personally would very much prefer a modest yataghan from the Siege of Vienna to a lavish contemporary one. But this is just my preference :-)

Great job!

27th December 2011, 11:46 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The handle parts, and other fittings were first made of jewellery wax, then bronze casted, and finally silver plated. Attached Images

28th December 2011, 04:07 PM	#6
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks Alex, yes, I made it narrower at the throat side because I felt it would have been really too large to accomotate the handle itself. I think this bring us back to the point of having casted parts : only embossed metalwork would allow an overall thiner aspect and would make possible the genuine scabbard design, because the wood thickness requirement would be less. Still remains to me the question of the general scabbard bending. Could you please have a look at the attached photos and tell me if it looks OK for you or if you see something that should have been made differently ? Of course your own photos are more than welcome. Will be very profitable to me as scabbard is not what photos usually focus on. Attached Images

28th December 2011, 02:20 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Delor, Good work overall, considering the requirements. I understand that you've been asked not to engrave/chisel the fittings, and to bronze-cast and plate instead, etc. Essentially, your client asked for a "custom job" based on his/her preferences, not on “historical” accuracy. Speaking of fittings: from standpoint of comparing to traditional techniques - they cannot even be compared, other than based on shape and overall look, which is not wise thing to do. I do not like the fittings, they look like furniture embellishments from the hardware store (the better ones have finer and crispier details, sorry). The scabbard itself is not of proper form for yataghan! in my opinion - it falls short on these two points.

28th December 2011, 03:27 PM	#4
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Alex, you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy. The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later). The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate ! Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did. At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences. Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help... ... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them). Kind regards, Bernard PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

28th December 2011, 03:47 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, A classical Yataghan's scabbard should be of full/round, oval-like shape to accomodate approximately 1/4 of the handle length when the blade is fully inserted. The scabbard's profile should resemble the profile of the blade, but be slightly wider at the throat side to fit the blade's tip upon insertion. I may have some pictures of original yat scabbard, disassembled. will post later.

28th December 2011, 04:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This is absolutely astonishingly beautiful craftmanship Bernard, and thank you so much for sharing the developing work along with your thoughts, ideas and steps. It is fascinating to learn more on how this weapon was produced and the details on things like which type of ivory to use, something I would not have even thought of. Alex thank you for the valuable input as well, and as Bernard has noted, this is exactly what was hoped for...to add historical context to this weapon which is a masterfully produced interpretation of the original forms. As an arms historian I admit I have always had reservations about 'reproductions' and 'replicas' as they are clearly not actual vintage items, however this has given me the opportunity to truly appreciate the work presented in these. Absolutely outstanding, and well presented Bernard, with excellent discussion! Thank you guys, All best regards, Jim

4th February 2012, 01:44 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Delor, I can only shake my head in astonishment... You did a marvelous job, and with all the points astutely noticed by Alex, this is an example of a wonderful craftsmanship. My hat is off to you!!! On the other hand, the part I do not get is the wish of the customer to have a modern ( although highly artistic) replica of a yataghan. I have no idea how much it cost him ( you've earned every penny) and how long he had to wait for the finished product, but I bet that for half the price he could have bought himself an excellent genuine and truly old one. No matter how great is the craftsmanship, the aura of history cannot be recreated. I am proud of you, but cannot understand him.

4th February 2012, 03:24 PM	#10
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	Well, it won't be used in reenactments of the Siege of Vienna, that's for sure! On the other hand he probably wanted a modern custom show knife based upon that form.

4th February 2012, 03:28 PM	#11
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Dom, thank you very much ...and merci beaucoup ! I'm far from being a "master" as were some of the craftsmen of the ancient times, but it's the goal I'm trying to reach... Ariel, thanks a lot. I do understand your comments, and I'm not trying to recreate the "aura" of genuire arms, that would be very difficult anyway, and certainly not respectable trying to fool people by making fake copies. You should think of the customer as somebody who wishes to have a brand new and beautiful sword. And he wants it to be custom made, exactly fitting his will. He's not different from the customer who bought the same one, a few centuries ago. He's also aware of the History and traditions, but he is not a collector of antique artefacts. He likes beautiful old clothes but wants a new habit for himself... fspic, you get it.. And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him...so my only wish is that my yatagan could look the same in XXIIIth century as the one you're collecting today !