A cavalry sword ... still in time for Christmas

fernando · 27th December 2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... I'm going to put a link back to this thread on my "regular" forum where I am the moderator, the Company of Military Historians Forum, because we have some folks interested in Spanish weapons there. ...

Just help yourself

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... I'm not sure where or if antique artillery is an appropriate subject here...

Oh yes, why not ? As long as it is antique, let it come

kronckew · 27th December 2011, 04:35 PM

we have had some rather long discussions about cannon balls and chain/bar shot recently, including my links to the US artillery manual of the 1860's...

i'd think things that go boom with a mix of charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre are quite appropriate for the forum...like fernando's grenade avatar...

fernando · 27th December 2011, 04:36 PM

The way Juan José Pérez puts it in his website:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab_e.htm

kronckew · 27th December 2011, 04:42 PM

juan's sentence:

"All the previous patterns, excepting perhaps the one of 1728, took part in the Wars against Napoleon's troops, along with lots of arms obtained from older blades and newer hilts, some of them of non-official French types."

was quite interesting....

fernando · 27th December 2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

juan's sentence:

"All the previous patterns, excepting perhaps the one of 1728, took part in the Wars against Napoleon's troops, along with lots of arms obtained from older blades and newer hilts, some of them of non-official French types."

was quite interesting....

So i see !
My hope remains that the specificity of my example is not devoured by the generality mentioned by Juan's

.
I have just emailed him. In case he suggests mine is one of his quoted cases, i will the first to post his/your opinion

.

cannonmn · 27th December 2011, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Does the Company of Military Historians still produce the material in either newsletter or published articles? It has been a long time but as I recall there were quite a few venerable articles still sought after on various topics, many of them pertaining to uniforms and equipment.

Jim, I think our articles in the quarterly Journal are better, lots of color photos, more and more varied content, etc.

If anyone wants to join, please visit this page within our website:

http://www.military-historians.org/join/join.htm

Meanwhile, anyone may visit our online Forum, here:

http://www.military-historians.org/c...ber/member.cgi

Also, because of your interest in The Company, we're giving you (all) a free copy of our world-famous journal "Military Collector and Historian;" to download it:

http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~mil....cgi/read/9671

Thanks!

John

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2011, 05:02 AM

This is fantastic John!!! Thank you so much, and thank you for the barrage of outstanding posts on great topics

Its great to touch base again with The Company, its been a long time and brings back great memories of research years ago B.C. (before computers

for me. Its amazing how I could have lost touch for so long.

All the very best,
Jim

fernando · 2nd January 2012, 06:28 PM

I have received Juan José Pérez feedback.
While he reminds that this blade model was regularly mounted on French An XIII line cavalry swords, he finds it difficult to define whether this specific composition was result of a period work done in Spain with a captured blade or a later work required by some sword enthusiast or collector.
He has added that this is the first time he sees this particular setup.

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 05:05 PM

Note to 'Cannonmn'........"fire for effect"!!!! Absolutely, bring it on. We very much welcome all topics on arms as well as ordnance. Thank you for noting your intent to link us to your readers. Does the Company of Military Historians still produce the material in either newsletter or published articles? It has been a long time but as I recall there were quite a few venerable articles still sought after on various topics, many of them pertaining to uniforms and equipment.

Thank you so much Fernando for adding this detail.....outstanding information!!
Also thank you for adding the link to Juan's work on these swords...I was having trouble locating...or just didnt look it up

Clearly, and as noted by him, there was a great deal of conflict in establishing exact form for the various 'regulation' patterns and which dates they would be designated.
As with many regulation patterns adopted in military 'organization' the prescribed or more likely accepted patterns were often of forms which had already been in use, so assigning pattern dates was often a matter of perspective.
It seems that in the 1790s into opening years of the 19th century, there were actually several types in use by the Spanish military so though we know the period in use for them, designated date/pattern remains speculative.

By analogy, this was the case in England as well as they worked toward establishing regulation military patterns, beginning with the M1796 groups (though there were the M1788 patterns unofficially). While the heavy cavalry swords (from the Austrian M1769 pallasche) were clearly defined, the variations in some of the officers swords, Horse Guards etc. remained vaguely established and the light cavalry sabres had considerable variations, again primarily where officers were concerned.

Whatever one choses to designate this sword, it is a fantastic example of the sturdy Spanish cavalry fighting swords of the 1790s and early 1800s.
The French blade only heightens the intrigue in this historic piece !!

27th December 2011, 04:35 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	we have had some rather long discussions about cannon balls and chain/bar shot recently, including my links to the US artillery manual of the 1860's... i'd think things that go boom with a mix of charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre are quite appropriate for the forum...like fernando's grenade avatar...

27th December 2011, 04:36 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The way Juan José Pérez puts it in his website: http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab_e.htm

27th December 2011, 04:42 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	juan's sentence: "All the previous patterns, excepting perhaps the one of 1728, took part in the Wars against Napoleon's troops, along with lots of arms obtained from older blades and newer hilts, some of them of non-official French types." was quite interesting....

29th December 2011, 05:02 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	This is fantastic John!!! Thank you so much, and thank you for the barrage of outstanding posts on great topics Its great to touch base again with The Company, its been a long time and brings back great memories of research years ago B.C. (before computers for me. Its amazing how I could have lost touch for so long. All the very best, Jim

2nd January 2012, 06:28 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have received Juan José Pérez feedback. While he reminds that this blade model was regularly mounted on French An XIII line cavalry swords, he finds it difficult to define whether this specific composition was result of a period work done in Spain with a captured blade or a later work required by some sword enthusiast or collector. He has added that this is the first time he sees this particular setup.

27th December 2011, 05:05 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Note to 'Cannonmn'........"fire for effect"!!!! Absolutely, bring it on. We very much welcome all topics on arms as well as ordnance. Thank you for noting your intent to link us to your readers. Does the Company of Military Historians still produce the material in either newsletter or published articles? It has been a long time but as I recall there were quite a few venerable articles still sought after on various topics, many of them pertaining to uniforms and equipment. Thank you so much Fernando for adding this detail.....outstanding information!! Also thank you for adding the link to Juan's work on these swords...I was having trouble locating...or just didnt look it up Clearly, and as noted by him, there was a great deal of conflict in establishing exact form for the various 'regulation' patterns and which dates they would be designated. As with many regulation patterns adopted in military 'organization' the prescribed or more likely accepted patterns were often of forms which had already been in use, so assigning pattern dates was often a matter of perspective. It seems that in the 1790s into opening years of the 19th century, there were actually several types in use by the Spanish military so though we know the period in use for them, designated date/pattern remains speculative. By analogy, this was the case in England as well as they worked toward establishing regulation military patterns, beginning with the M1796 groups (though there were the M1788 patterns unofficially). While the heavy cavalry swords (from the Austrian M1769 pallasche) were clearly defined, the variations in some of the officers swords, Horse Guards etc. remained vaguely established and the light cavalry sabres had considerable variations, again primarily where officers were concerned. Whatever one choses to designate this sword, it is a fantastic example of the sturdy Spanish cavalry fighting swords of the 1790s and early 1800s. The French blade only heightens the intrigue in this historic piece !!