Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Could you please present any dated or closely datable kind of period artwork showing a Katzbalger from the 1570's/80's?

Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

Of course, a good example of the Landsknecht+arms are the illustrations made by Wolfgang Strauch.
these are dated 1568 (Claus Wintergruen and son Heintz + the landsknecht and the death, note the model katzbalger at the landsknecht belt, it is the same as Lee's katzbalger however longer).

Jost Amman also produced illustrations of landsknechts with katzbalgers in this period.
(see pictures)

In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel , dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

The reason for my late dating of Lee's katzbalger is due to the inner guard with finger protection (norman type 17), it only came in after 1570 more frequent.
The earliest known inner guard of this type 17 is on a painting in Munich, a portrait of a member of the house of Baden, 1549. Inv no 740, Bayerische Staatsgemaeldesammlung.

best,

[Matchlock]

[QUOTE=cornelistromp]Hi Michael, In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel, dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

Right, Jasper,

But I would not really call these late specimens Katzbalgers anymore. They are followers retaining an older feature, the pretzel or figure eight quillons but noticeably smaller by the 1560's-80's, whlie the swords themselves, just like the period guns, had grown in length in comparison since the first half of the 16th c.

Please cf. the famous GIECH estoc, Souhern Germany/Bavaria, ca. 1570, last sold at Sotheby's, The Visser Collection part I, 1990.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

I think we have to define katzbalger.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight blade of type XIII, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A late 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.
and the sword in landsknecht-image of post #274 does meet 1,2 and 3 of the above mentioned definition.

best,

[Zwielicht]

As a personal opinion - I would also have added to the definition a massive broad flattened pommel seen on most of katzbalgers, mostly of that specific shape (do not remember proper English name for it) seen only on them.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Zwielicht

As a personal opinion - I would also have added to the definition a massive broad flattened pommel seen on most of katzbalgers, mostly of that specific shape (do not remember proper English name for it) seen only on them.

There are several types of katzbalger pommels known, so also different types of grip caps as well steel katzbalger grip endings, integrated in the grip.
There are probably enough examples not yet known either!

it would be great to have the different types illustrated with examples.

best,

[Matchlock]

I thought that was exactly what I had been doing here all of the time, and I also gave the respective dates and references ...

Best,
Michael