European bladed takouba

Lee · 23rd December 2011, 03:51 PM

Not the same as Iain's marks, but executed in a similar manner, are a pair of 'cross in circle' marks from either side of the blade of a great sword of war that Christie's opined to be 14th century that subsequently met the fate of being tarted-up in the late 16th century into a bearing sword, though some of the structurally shabby decorative mountings are probably even later. Or maybe the whole thing is an atavistic exercise from the late 16th century, though I feel Christie's interpretation is quite plausible.

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2011, 05:00 PM

Thank you Iain, and Lee for addding the additional example. I am inclined to agree with approximate 14th century period for this blade shown in Christies, as these kinds of crosses (various forms of Greek cross) were well emplaced during the crusades. As earlier explained, the placement of crosses were not only a component of ecclesiastic authority in signatures of bishops and abbots which appeared on blades, but attained probable talismanic properties, as noted in the practice of placement on scabbards and blades.

While the cross and orb is known to have presence into antiquity, it seems that these medieval interpretations carry similar allegorical symbolism, which of course the orb, or in this case circle represents encompassing the world..the triumphant cross concept. The placement of the lines on the arm terminals on this Greek cross is simply another of the many variations used with the fourchee (forks or more embellished 'moline') being another.

I am inclined to doubt that the use of these types of marks can be attributed to a particular workshop or exact period, but a range of period may be established in grouping examples which have similar types. As far as makers, there are cases where certain ones have been associated with having been known to favor certain types...such as Heinrich Koll (Coll) often used the cross and orb..to the point that observers felt it notable. The case of the flourished 'anchors' which likely developed from cross and orb symbolism seem to have signature type embellishments which may be attributed to certain makers, but that is far from being accomplished as far as I am aware.

As Iain has noted, and Lee is keenly aware, the character of the blade becomes one of the prevalent identifying factors in cases like these. While many marks can offer compelling evidence, they were of course used extensively and often relatively randomly by many makers over extended periods as well as being copied widely. This is in no way diminishes thier importance, but often requires considerable supporting evidence by other comparitive examples and detail to accurately use them in identification.

As Lee has noted, atavistic renovation using heirloom or venerable blades was practiced in western settings much as is typically the case in ethnographic native situations. Blades often had extensively long working lives and were often remounted through many generations. In looking through the Wallace Collection reference by Sir James Mann it is interesting to see how many instances there are of older blades on later hilts, and incongruent nationality in blades and hilts. Often many swords described as 'composite' are actually these kinds of weapons, refurbished with components of other usually similar weapon types during thier working life to maintain serviceability.
Many venerated old blades which had become in degree 'relics of combat' were remounted and did become as I understand, bearing type swords used ceremonially as symbols of authority.

Wodimi · 23rd December 2011, 08:03 PM

Iain, they don't mention in the book a maker or workshop. You're right with your meaning, they have an example of this mark in this Berliner Zeughaus, which is this museum today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...risches_Museum

and another example in Coburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veste_Coburg

Jim McDougall · 24th December 2011, 01:11 AM

The references showing the cross fourchee encircled with the date 1590 are most interesting though it is unclear what references they appear in. I am assuming one is R.Cronau, the other the Solingen history by Weyersberg but cannot be certain. In any case, these type marks are not makers marks in the sense of those recorded by the guilds, but are often referred to as makers marks in that they were applied by the maker. It seems these crosses, orb and cross and such devices often occurred on one side of the blade, while the actual distinct mark of the maker may appear on the other.

Oakeshott, in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" (1991) shows a large hand and a half (type XX) sword (fig. XX.1, p.208) with this same kind of forked cross and the central fuller blade, assessing date period c.1320-40. There are also other enigmatic markings present.
The author also notes on p.257 markings on several swords carry "..the age old figure of a cross within a circle".
Also seen in this reference (p.212, XXa.1) is a type XX.A sword with curious amalgam of Greek and Latin miniscule letters in inscription with an encircled cross present, this one being the 'cross crosslet' (four Latin crosses to form one larger cross) as seen on the example Lee presented. Oakeshott dates this example in his book to c. 1425-50.

It is tempting to consider the forementioned cross fourchee as an earlier form of cross, but clearly both forms (among apparantly numbers of others such as the cross pattee) were in use concurrently and for some time using inlaid brass or copper. In Wallace Collection(1962), Sir James Mann notes on p.251 describing 'inlaid marks' on a 16th century example as having been used for a very long time. Actually Lech Marek ("Early Medieval Swords from Eastern and Central Europe", 2005, p.47) notes 10th century swords from Slovakia with Greek cross inlaid in copper in the blade.

In Wendell Boeheim "Waffenkunde" (Leipzig, 1890, p.674) there are examples of this exact cross fourchee form, one encircled just as this one on Iains takouba blade, the other encircled within two concentric circles. They are both identified as 13th century marks, with the one corresponding to Iains noted as having presence in 14th and 15th century noting Italian provenance as well.
In the same reference page one of the cross crosslet type shown by Lee is also present and shown as 12th century.

It would indeed be interesting to see the examples in the arsenal in Berlin and Coburg as seeing context in the actual sword would add a bit more perspective.

Iain · 24th December 2011, 10:59 AM

I am afraid I have to keep this to a short note due to the holidays and a wife who really would rather I was decorating the tree right now!

Lee,

Thank you for posting these additional marks. I think it is important to be able to say the cross, with terminals (albeit not forked) was being used encircled by the 14th century. This goes a long way to supporting to inclination to an earlier dating I think. Truly fantastic that you have these Medieval pieces in your hands, I am absolutely delighted and honored you have taken this degree of interested in my sword.

Wolf,

Thank you! I will attempt to contact both museums in the new year. I will be very interested in how these blades look....

Jim,

As always, very helpful in getting oriented about the how's and why's of Medieval marks. I am enjoying the discussion and references intensely. I think you and Lee are making a better and better case for this blade being the early example you think it is.

Just a few notes to clarify and help out future avenues of inquiry. On my blade both marks are found on both sides of the blade in the same positions. So absolutely duplicated.

Obviously the next step is to track down these two German swords and any others bearing similar crosses. Also, I just wanted to make clear I know the danger of only judging by photographs, if I have the chance to come to Baltimore this year, I will make every effort to bring this sword along so Lee can have a hands on examination.

All the best,

Iain

23rd December 2011, 03:51 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Not the same as Iain's marks, but executed in a similar manner, are a pair of 'cross in circle' marks from either side of the blade of a great sword of war that Christie's opined to be 14th century that subsequently met the fate of being tarted-up in the late 16th century into a bearing sword, though some of the structurally shabby decorative mountings are probably even later. Or maybe the whole thing is an atavistic exercise from the late 16th century, though I feel Christie's interpretation is quite plausible. Attached Images

23rd December 2011, 05:00 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Iain, and Lee for addding the additional example. I am inclined to agree with approximate 14th century period for this blade shown in Christies, as these kinds of crosses (various forms of Greek cross) were well emplaced during the crusades. As earlier explained, the placement of crosses were not only a component of ecclesiastic authority in signatures of bishops and abbots which appeared on blades, but attained probable talismanic properties, as noted in the practice of placement on scabbards and blades. While the cross and orb is known to have presence into antiquity, it seems that these medieval interpretations carry similar allegorical symbolism, which of course the orb, or in this case circle represents encompassing the world..the triumphant cross concept. The placement of the lines on the arm terminals on this Greek cross is simply another of the many variations used with the fourchee (forks or more embellished 'moline') being another. I am inclined to doubt that the use of these types of marks can be attributed to a particular workshop or exact period, but a range of period may be established in grouping examples which have similar types. As far as makers, there are cases where certain ones have been associated with having been known to favor certain types...such as Heinrich Koll (Coll) often used the cross and orb..to the point that observers felt it notable. The case of the flourished 'anchors' which likely developed from cross and orb symbolism seem to have signature type embellishments which may be attributed to certain makers, but that is far from being accomplished as far as I am aware. As Iain has noted, and Lee is keenly aware, the character of the blade becomes one of the prevalent identifying factors in cases like these. While many marks can offer compelling evidence, they were of course used extensively and often relatively randomly by many makers over extended periods as well as being copied widely. This is in no way diminishes thier importance, but often requires considerable supporting evidence by other comparitive examples and detail to accurately use them in identification. As Lee has noted, atavistic renovation using heirloom or venerable blades was practiced in western settings much as is typically the case in ethnographic native situations. Blades often had extensively long working lives and were often remounted through many generations. In looking through the Wallace Collection reference by Sir James Mann it is interesting to see how many instances there are of older blades on later hilts, and incongruent nationality in blades and hilts. Often many swords described as 'composite' are actually these kinds of weapons, refurbished with components of other usually similar weapon types during thier working life to maintain serviceability. Many venerated old blades which had become in degree 'relics of combat' were remounted and did become as I understand, bearing type swords used ceremonially as symbols of authority. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd December 2011 at 05:15 PM.

23rd December 2011, 08:03 PM	#3
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Iain, they don't mention in the book a maker or workshop. You're right with your meaning, they have an example of this mark in this Berliner Zeughaus, which is this museum today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...risches_Museum and another example in Coburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veste_Coburg

24th December 2011, 01:11 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	The references showing the cross fourchee encircled with the date 1590 are most interesting though it is unclear what references they appear in. I am assuming one is R.Cronau, the other the Solingen history by Weyersberg but cannot be certain. In any case, these type marks are not makers marks in the sense of those recorded by the guilds, but are often referred to as makers marks in that they were applied by the maker. It seems these crosses, orb and cross and such devices often occurred on one side of the blade, while the actual distinct mark of the maker may appear on the other. Oakeshott, in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" (1991) shows a large hand and a half (type XX) sword (fig. XX.1, p.208) with this same kind of forked cross and the central fuller blade, assessing date period c.1320-40. There are also other enigmatic markings present. The author also notes on p.257 markings on several swords carry "..the age old figure of a cross within a circle". Also seen in this reference (p.212, XXa.1) is a type XX.A sword with curious amalgam of Greek and Latin miniscule letters in inscription with an encircled cross present, this one being the 'cross crosslet' (four Latin crosses to form one larger cross) as seen on the example Lee presented. Oakeshott dates this example in his book to c. 1425-50. It is tempting to consider the forementioned cross fourchee as an earlier form of cross, but clearly both forms (among apparantly numbers of others such as the cross pattee) were in use concurrently and for some time using inlaid brass or copper. In Wallace Collection(1962), Sir James Mann notes on p.251 describing 'inlaid marks' on a 16th century example as having been used for a very long time. Actually Lech Marek ("Early Medieval Swords from Eastern and Central Europe", 2005, p.47) notes 10th century swords from Slovakia with Greek cross inlaid in copper in the blade. In Wendell Boeheim "Waffenkunde" (Leipzig, 1890, p.674) there are examples of this exact cross fourchee form, one encircled just as this one on Iains takouba blade, the other encircled within two concentric circles. They are both identified as 13th century marks, with the one corresponding to Iains noted as having presence in 14th and 15th century noting Italian provenance as well. In the same reference page one of the cross crosslet type shown by Lee is also present and shown as 12th century. It would indeed be interesting to see the examples in the arsenal in Berlin and Coburg as seeing context in the actual sword would add a bit more perspective.

24th December 2011, 10:59 AM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	I am afraid I have to keep this to a short note due to the holidays and a wife who really would rather I was decorating the tree right now! Lee, Thank you for posting these additional marks. I think it is important to be able to say the cross, with terminals (albeit not forked) was being used encircled by the 14th century. This goes a long way to supporting to inclination to an earlier dating I think. Truly fantastic that you have these Medieval pieces in your hands, I am absolutely delighted and honored you have taken this degree of interested in my sword. Wolf, Thank you! I will attempt to contact both museums in the new year. I will be very interested in how these blades look.... Jim, As always, very helpful in getting oriented about the how's and why's of Medieval marks. I am enjoying the discussion and references intensely. I think you and Lee are making a better and better case for this blade being the early example you think it is. Just a few notes to clarify and help out future avenues of inquiry. On my blade both marks are found on both sides of the blade in the same positions. So absolutely duplicated. Obviously the next step is to track down these two German swords and any others bearing similar crosses. Also, I just wanted to make clear I know the danger of only judging by photographs, if I have the chance to come to Baltimore this year, I will make every effort to bring this sword along so Lee can have a hands on examination. All the best, Iain