help id these 3

casey · 25th December 2004, 08:52 AM

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.First to RhysM I looked at the links and the third is very similar to Parang Sumbawa. Thank you for your imput and will post bettter pic asap to confirm.NEXT TO Yannis I sincerely hope it is not a joke I am a novice just trying to learn about what has been passed on to me by a dear friend.Tom the ladder pattern sounds familiar can you please give me more info on what you know of this style. Thank you all very much and will update pics soon,this has been very helpfull.
Casey.

RSWORD · 25th December 2004, 03:10 PM

The first example appears to be Indian made but perhaps for a British officer. If you look closely at the cross guard where it meets the top of the handle, it is nicely done in the form of a parrot or birds head. Very Indian. The grip profile seems reminiscent of early 19th century British and European swords with the way the grip swells in the lower half. The blade is pattern welded but is not necessarily new due to the pattern. If you look at some of the nice pattern welded examples in Figiels book, one can see patterns not unlike this one from the 18th and 19th century. The scabbard does look Ottoman from what pics have been shown, but, I wouldn't exclude Indian either. I think it is a rather nice sword.
As everyone says, the second example is a Moro Kris. The blade looks interesting and a full profile shot would be nice.
The 3rd example is from Celebes and has a nicely layered blade. All 3 pieces are quite nice and I hope you share more pieces. Lovely gifts and ones that should be appreciated. Your friend gifted well.

tom hyle · 25th December 2004, 06:57 PM

something wrong with my computer this morning; lost my whole dang reply. Ladder pattern steel is steel with a rhytmically waved grain. Strictly it is straight grain steel with periodic "rungs" or waves seperating the straight-grain sections, as seen here. It is analogous to "curly" grain in wood. The ladder pattern is formed by cutting notches across the steel and then forging them out. On curved blades like this one, the pattern will often be more opened out toward the outer edge of the curve, having been spread out when the curve and the bevel were forged. Within Islam this pattern is often referred to as the ladder of the prophet/ladder of Muhammed, and held to have religious meaning/magical powers. It is a pattern encountered in Europe and Japan, as well as from Mooroco to Indonesia and the Philippines. It is encountered in both layered and wootz/bulat (Tartaric carbide-bearing steel/"true damascus"/crystaline steel), and as either whole blades or welded elements of them (side plates, in my experience). It may lock the layers together against delamination, and also can provide a seration effect at the edge.

25th December 2004, 08:52 AM	#1
casey Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: australia Posts: 13	THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.First to RhysM I looked at the links and the third is very similar to Parang Sumbawa. Thank you for your imput and will post bettter pic asap to confirm.NEXT TO Yannis I sincerely hope it is not a joke I am a novice just trying to learn about what has been passed on to me by a dear friend.Tom the ladder pattern sounds familiar can you please give me more info on what you know of this style. Thank you all very much and will update pics soon,this has been very helpfull. Casey.

25th December 2004, 03:10 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The first example appears to be Indian made but perhaps for a British officer. If you look closely at the cross guard where it meets the top of the handle, it is nicely done in the form of a parrot or birds head. Very Indian. The grip profile seems reminiscent of early 19th century British and European swords with the way the grip swells in the lower half. The blade is pattern welded but is not necessarily new due to the pattern. If you look at some of the nice pattern welded examples in Figiels book, one can see patterns not unlike this one from the 18th and 19th century. The scabbard does look Ottoman from what pics have been shown, but, I wouldn't exclude Indian either. I think it is a rather nice sword. As everyone says, the second example is a Moro Kris. The blade looks interesting and a full profile shot would be nice. The 3rd example is from Celebes and has a nicely layered blade. All 3 pieces are quite nice and I hope you share more pieces. Lovely gifts and ones that should be appreciated. Your friend gifted well.

25th December 2004, 06:57 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	something wrong with my computer this morning; lost my whole dang reply. Ladder pattern steel is steel with a rhytmically waved grain. Strictly it is straight grain steel with periodic "rungs" or waves seperating the straight-grain sections, as seen here. It is analogous to "curly" grain in wood. The ladder pattern is formed by cutting notches across the steel and then forging them out. On curved blades like this one, the pattern will often be more opened out toward the outer edge of the curve, having been spread out when the curve and the bevel were forged. Within Islam this pattern is often referred to as the ladder of the prophet/ladder of Muhammed, and held to have religious meaning/magical powers. It is a pattern encountered in Europe and Japan, as well as from Mooroco to Indonesia and the Philippines. It is encountered in both layered and wootz/bulat (Tartaric carbide-bearing steel/"true damascus"/crystaline steel), and as either whole blades or welded elements of them (side plates, in my experience). It may lock the layers together against delamination, and also can provide a seration effect at the edge.