Left hand dagger for comments

fernando · 12th December 2011, 09:45 PM

Thank you Jim, for your input; i know you fancy these cups

.
I am not qualified to weave considerations on this sword by myself, but i feel comfortable with the seller/author description, as also judging by the examples i see out there within this range... despite this specific one being more a 'business' example and not one of those fully decorated (filed + perforated) luxury specimens commissioned to adorn nobility attires, like those in Wallace Collection.
I find the concavity for the thumb, to optimize controll and apply strength, a unequivocal sign that this example was made for actual fighting or say, battle.
The XVII century seems to be a consensual attribution to this example.
It appears that these daggers, as also cuphilt swords of this period, could also be of Italian origin but, this specific one, given the details like the 'sail' guard, the caged grip and its (dagger) immediate provenance, will be Spanish or, in an embracing mode, Peninsular.
It is registered that left hand daggers were already in use in the early XVI century ... Spaniards and Portuguese being strongly connected, both civilian and military.
Having said all the above, i will further ask you to take it all with a pinch of salt; i am only a humble amateur

.
Attached, two woodcuts from the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt, one dated 1536 and the other 1612.

.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2011, 10:22 PM

Nicely put Nando, and being a 'business' example is all the more the charm of the weapon as the fancier types are too often simply impressive novelties or 'conversation pieces'. This would likely be Peninsular rather than Italian as the plain cuphilts were more likely to be so than thier usually fancier cousins which were often pierced openwork and indeed Italian. Since these were usually en suite of course, despite the 'businesslike' simplicity, the dagger was to parallel, not outdo its partner.

The Spaniards of course were deeply engrained in thier swordsmanship traditions, and refused to give way to newly developing techniques and schools of fencing, maintaining thier mysterious 'destreza' through the 18th and even into the 19th century. In this, these weapons which were in a sense obsolete elsewhere in the Continent still were fashionable with the beloved cuphilts. This is of course an example of the 17th century style but it is possible of course to be early 18th. As I have mentioned before, the thin Solingen made rapier blades for Spain were still around into the 18th century in the colonies, and I once handled a number which were found on a shipwreck off Panama (I think there were around 40 in an apparant shipment for hilting).

Also, you Sir are far too humble.....you ceased being an 'amateur' many, many years ago!!!

Beautiful and charming dagger Nando!!! These to me are so much more attractive than the overembellished and festooned types!

All the best,
Jim

12th December 2011, 09:45 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jim, for your input; i know you fancy these cups . I am not qualified to weave considerations on this sword by myself, but i feel comfortable with the seller/author description, as also judging by the examples i see out there within this range... despite this specific one being more a 'business' example and not one of those fully decorated (filed + perforated) luxury specimens commissioned to adorn nobility attires, like those in Wallace Collection. I find the concavity for the thumb, to optimize controll and apply strength, a unequivocal sign that this example was made for actual fighting or say, battle. The XVII century seems to be a consensual attribution to this example. It appears that these daggers, as also cuphilt swords of this period, could also be of Italian origin but, this specific one, given the details like the 'sail' guard, the caged grip and its (dagger) immediate provenance, will be Spanish or, in an embracing mode, Peninsular. It is registered that left hand daggers were already in use in the early XVI century ... Spaniards and Portuguese being strongly connected, both civilian and military. Having said all the above, i will further ask you to take it all with a pinch of salt; i am only a humble amateur . Attached, two woodcuts from the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt, one dated 1536 and the other 1612. . Attached Images

12th December 2011, 10:22 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Nicely put Nando, and being a 'business' example is all the more the charm of the weapon as the fancier types are too often simply impressive novelties or 'conversation pieces'. This would likely be Peninsular rather than Italian as the plain cuphilts were more likely to be so than thier usually fancier cousins which were often pierced openwork and indeed Italian. Since these were usually en suite of course, despite the 'businesslike' simplicity, the dagger was to parallel, not outdo its partner. The Spaniards of course were deeply engrained in thier swordsmanship traditions, and refused to give way to newly developing techniques and schools of fencing, maintaining thier mysterious 'destreza' through the 18th and even into the 19th century. In this, these weapons which were in a sense obsolete elsewhere in the Continent still were fashionable with the beloved cuphilts. This is of course an example of the 17th century style but it is possible of course to be early 18th. As I have mentioned before, the thin Solingen made rapier blades for Spain were still around into the 18th century in the colonies, and I once handled a number which were found on a shipwreck off Panama (I think there were around 40 in an apparant shipment for hilting). Also, you Sir are far too humble.....you ceased being an 'amateur' many, many years ago!!! Beautiful and charming dagger Nando!!! These to me are so much more attractive than the overembellished and festooned types! All the best, Jim