A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2005, 08:52 PM

Hi Aqtai,

What a beauty, thank you for showing it.

The ‘sword’ shown in the Tirri book, has doubtfully been used as a two hand swords, but I have never seen the one in Leeds. You could have used it as a mace, but I doubt very much how big a help it would have be, and used as a two hand ‘sword’, what would the point be? Other maybe, than you could steer the sword better.

I find the discussion most interesting, but one must remember that in the Worlds at that time, the Oriental and the European, mails as well as weapons were made in many qualities, which would fit the buyers wallet, so one can’t say that European mails were better than mails from India, not can one say the opposite – it all depended of the buyer – not on the mail smiths, as they could make whatever you wanted.

Jens

B.I · 8th August 2005, 11:58 PM

sorry to have been absent on this topic. i have been reading the other discussion on SFI and must agree that i still dont agree with whats being said.
i think the reason i feel the post goes astray, is that indian armour is still being classified as a whole. this isnt the case, and never has been. i dont see the point of testing against a similar, or even antique piece of mail. would you choose a high quality one or a poor one. which type of katar would you use? i true reading would be a poor piece of mail against a very good katar, as this would prove it can be penetrated but this is hardly accurate, nor is there much point in doing so. the answer doesnt require any tests, nor a scientific analysis. the proof is apparant in surviving examples, of which there are enough around to make a visual inspection and conclusion. if visually, there is no doubt, then i dont particularly see the point in taking the conversation further. the slightest doubt would induce a further anaysis but in my humble opinion, i feel this isnt needed.
attached is an image of two types of mail. both are from the same region and probably the same date (give or take..) the katar is roughly the same date as well. the katar is relatively standard in form ie. not excessively thickened as jens' example, but just the tip, as found in earlier examples. the section of mail shown is of the upper torso section, which is normally heavier duty due to the vital organs that needed protection.
the katar is early 17thC. the mail is dated 17thC but could possible be 100 years earlier. to me (again, humble opinion) this katar would sail through the lighter mail, but would struggle against the heavier mail. (the blacker mail on the top right is ottoman and just for comparative size)
all opinions can only be asthetic. as jim rightly says, we could not imagine the ferocity of 17thC battle and so any scientific test, whether on paper or physical would be tainted.
jens also notes that mail shirts were commonly worn (more so that in europe) and the quality was related the the wealth of the owner. in europe, only a wealthy man could afford armour but the quantities of indian armour that survived, and the range of quality tends to paint a different picture.
i dont think indian mail can ever be compared to european because the culture, people and art of war was completely different.

Aqtai · 9th August 2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

sorry to have been absent on this topic. i have been reading the other discussion on SFI and must agree that i still dont agree with whats being said.
i think the reason i feel the post goes astray, is that indian armour is still being classified as a whole. this isnt the case, and never has been. i dont see the point of testing against a similar, or even antique piece of mail. would you choose a high quality one or a poor one. which type of katar would you use? i true reading would be a poor piece of mail against a very good katar, as this would prove it can be penetrated but this is hardly accurate, nor is there much point in doing so. the answer doesnt require any tests, nor a scientific analysis. the proof is apparant in surviving examples, of which there are enough around to make a visual inspection and conclusion. if visually, there is no doubt, then i dont particularly see the point in taking the conversation further. the slightest doubt would induce a further anaysis but in my humble opinion, i feel this isnt needed.
attached is an image of two types of mail. both are from the same region and probably the same date (give or take..) the katar is roughly the same date as well. the katar is relatively standard in form ie. not excessively thickened as jens' example, but just the tip, as found in earlier examples. the section of mail shown is of the upper torso section, which is normally heavier duty due to the vital organs that needed protection.
the katar is early 17thC. the mail is dated 17thC but could possible be 100 years earlier. to me (again, humble opinion) this katar would sail through the lighter mail, but would struggle against the heavier mail. (the blacker mail on the top right is ottoman and just for comparative size)
all opinions can only be asthetic. as jim rightly says, we could not imagine the ferocity of 17thC battle and so any scientific test, whether on paper or physical would be tainted.
jens also notes that mail shirts were commonly worn (more so that in europe) and the quality was related the the wealth of the owner. in europe, only a wealthy man could afford armour but the quantities of indian armour that survived, and the range of quality tends to paint a different picture.
i dont think indian mail can ever be compared to european because the culture, people and art of war was completely different.

I like the pictures you posted, they illustrate very nicely the differences between different types of mail. I also suggested on the SFI forum that an experiment would be useful

, but I have changed my mind since then. Like you said, there was lot of variation from one mail shirt to another, not just in the size of the links but also in the quality of the iron used. Furthermore an antique mail shirt will have degraded over the centuries.

My own personnal conclusion is that the katar is a traditional weapon not specifically designed to penetrate mail, although variants do exist which have designed for that purpose. I also have concluded that a good quality ordinary katar, if used with sufficient force, will penetrate most mail shirts although probably not high quality mail with thick links over the chest.

B.I · 9th August 2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

I like the pictures you posted, they illustrate very nicely the differences between different types of mail. I also suggested on the SFI forum that an experiment would be useful

, but I have changed my mind since then. Like you said, there was lot of variation from one mail shirt to another, not just in the size of the links but also in the quality of the iron used. Furthermore an antique mail shirt will have degraded over the centuries.

My own personnal conclusion is that the katar is a traditional weapon not specifically designed to penetrate mail, although variants do exist which have designed for that purpose. I also have concluded that a good quality ordinary katar, if used with sufficient force, will penetrate most mail shirts although probably not high quality mail with thick links over the chest.

hi aqtai,
i completely agree with you and i think that the arguements generated on the other post were more borne from either a european perspective or an academic need to dominate conversations, no matter what the subject. it seemed clear that the armour in question had never been examined and so all analysis should not have gone past polite speculation.
i dont for one minute include you in this, as the post was on a more general armour forum, and not one that caters for an eastern perspective.
some of the conclusions were acceptable, some surprising and some just ludicrous. indian armour has been overlooked for a long time but, as i said before, 'recent' events have enabled us to study it at a more in depth level and most museums now have good examples that can be accessed. many of the major museums aquired these shirts from (near enough) the same source, although some already had examples in their inventory.
also, i'm not sure about the degrading of mail. this point was made on the other forum and i cant see that this could be a valid point. of course, in some or even most occasions, but never all and so this shouldnt be said as a sweeping statement. the mail i show at the bottom is in fabulous condition. each link still has a sharp ridge, often worn in other examples. the nature of ferrous metal is the erroding effect nature and time has. but, the nature of something 'expensive' is that it is looked after. look at most of the european armour in old collections and the preserved condition. i am not a metalurgist, but know that cast metal becomes more brittle with age but am not aware of this happening to armour. the best thing about ignorance is being blissfully unaware so someone please feel free to educate me. i know that asthetically a lot of armour hasnt degraded but anything more is out of my sphere.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2005, 03:27 PM

Very nice, and well composed, pictures. A very good way to illustrate your point of view.

Of the katars I have, there are only two, which does not have a reinforced tip. Not that the reinforcement itself means that could, or was meant for piercing mails. Here is another one.

B.I · 9th August 2005, 04:15 PM

very nice jens. although not as excessive as your other example, this one also overstresses the thickened tip as if the weapon was being adapted for a purpose.
both you and aqtai has expressed that the thickened point 'could' have been used to penetrate armour and i think it good to stress this. at the end of the day, all we can do is speculate and it seems that a thickened point could well have been included for this purpose, given the style of armour in that time.
also, something that has been overlooked is that many spears also had this reinforced tip, as did (on rare occasion) a sword blade. again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.

Mark · 9th August 2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.

That is what makes it such a great forum!

It would be great if someone could locate a damaged piece of Indian armor. If it has a katar-sized hole punched in it, this would tend to show that regardless of whether or not the katar was designed to pierce mail, it was able to. On the other hand, if all that one sees in the way of armor damage is slashing damage, or piercing by larger dimension blades (how would one tell that, BTW, just to be my own Devil's Advocate?), that might be an indication that the katar was not used to pierce armor. Hm ... how would you tell the difference between a katar hole and a war-hammer spike hole? Its always such a challenge to reconstruct the past.

I recall some posts of contemporary paintings and/or sculpture showing battle scenes with katar. Perhaps they show whether or not the opponent was mailed. I will try and locate them.

8th August 2005, 11:58 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	sorry to have been absent on this topic. i have been reading the other discussion on SFI and must agree that i still dont agree with whats being said. i think the reason i feel the post goes astray, is that indian armour is still being classified as a whole. this isnt the case, and never has been. i dont see the point of testing against a similar, or even antique piece of mail. would you choose a high quality one or a poor one. which type of katar would you use? i true reading would be a poor piece of mail against a very good katar, as this would prove it can be penetrated but this is hardly accurate, nor is there much point in doing so. the answer doesnt require any tests, nor a scientific analysis. the proof is apparant in surviving examples, of which there are enough around to make a visual inspection and conclusion. if visually, there is no doubt, then i dont particularly see the point in taking the conversation further. the slightest doubt would induce a further anaysis but in my humble opinion, i feel this isnt needed. attached is an image of two types of mail. both are from the same region and probably the same date (give or take..) the katar is roughly the same date as well. the katar is relatively standard in form ie. not excessively thickened as jens' example, but just the tip, as found in earlier examples. the section of mail shown is of the upper torso section, which is normally heavier duty due to the vital organs that needed protection. the katar is early 17thC. the mail is dated 17thC but could possible be 100 years earlier. to me (again, humble opinion) this katar would sail through the lighter mail, but would struggle against the heavier mail. (the blacker mail on the top right is ottoman and just for comparative size) all opinions can only be asthetic. as jim rightly says, we could not imagine the ferocity of 17thC battle and so any scientific test, whether on paper or physical would be tainted. jens also notes that mail shirts were commonly worn (more so that in europe) and the quality was related the the wealth of the owner. in europe, only a wealthy man could afford armour but the quantities of indian armour that survived, and the range of quality tends to paint a different picture. i dont think indian mail can ever be compared to european because the culture, people and art of war was completely different. Attached Images

9th August 2005, 03:27 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very nice, and well composed, pictures. A very good way to illustrate your point of view. Of the katars I have, there are only two, which does not have a reinforced tip. Not that the reinforcement itself means that could, or was meant for piercing mails. Here is another one. Attached Images

7th August 2005, 08:52 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Aqtai, What a beauty, thank you for showing it. The ‘sword’ shown in the Tirri book, has doubtfully been used as a two hand swords, but I have never seen the one in Leeds. You could have used it as a mace, but I doubt very much how big a help it would have be, and used as a two hand ‘sword’, what would the point be? Other maybe, than you could steer the sword better. I find the discussion most interesting, but one must remember that in the Worlds at that time, the Oriental and the European, mails as well as weapons were made in many qualities, which would fit the buyers wallet, so one can’t say that European mails were better than mails from India, not can one say the opposite – it all depended of the buyer – not on the mail smiths, as they could make whatever you wanted. Jens

9th August 2005, 04:15 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	very nice jens. although not as excessive as your other example, this one also overstresses the thickened tip as if the weapon was being adapted for a purpose. both you and aqtai has expressed that the thickened point 'could' have been used to penetrate armour and i think it good to stress this. at the end of the day, all we can do is speculate and it seems that a thickened point could well have been included for this purpose, given the style of armour in that time. also, something that has been overlooked is that many spears also had this reinforced tip, as did (on rare occasion) a sword blade. again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.