Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd August 2011, 07:46 PM   #211
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Thilo,

You are certainly right about the young people copying the swords without any 'dark' intention. The problem is the dealer who lends them the 'original' pieces and thereby makes them get 'copied after an original'. The 'original' items are fakes themselves, though, and by this method get copied on and on, spoiling peoples' minds.

Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 3rd August 2011 at 08:03 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2011, 07:34 PM   #212
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwizard

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: , 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de...0002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo



Hi Thilo,

Thank you for pointing out this valuable link!

As it is much preferred on our forum to post pictures instead of posting links, I am going to publish a selection of Hans Lehküchner, Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482.

Please note the birds' head shaped pommels (Vogelkopfknauf) as well as the single edged blades with their tips sharpened on both egdes.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
            

Last edited by Matchlock : 5th August 2011 at 08:23 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2011, 08:25 PM   #213
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

The rest.
Attached Images
          
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2011, 09:15 AM   #214
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 892
Default

Hi Gentlemen,

very nice, this is another type of messer, more of the "Hauswehr" type, with shorter quards and characteristic "Parierdorn".

best regards
Jasper
Attached Images
   
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2011, 09:13 PM   #215
Micke D
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 41
Default

Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D
Micke D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2011, 12:37 PM   #216
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Right, Jasper,

It's a so called Seiten- or Hauswehr, tool and weapon in one.

The grips and hollow rivets seem to be new.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2011, 08:41 PM   #217
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micke D
Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D



Hi Micke D,

All I can say is that I would date Jasper's Messer to ca. 1490-1400, and that is exactly the period this thread is all about, the high time of the Landsknechte. The short and heavily swamped quillons are characteristic for the Late Gothic stylistic period.

A very nice and nearly identical Messer or Seitenwehr is illustrated in Johann von Schwarzenberg's Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) of 1507. This illustration was originally posted by our member Samik earlier in this thread.

I am sure Jasper will give you the measurements you required.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Matchlock : 9th August 2011 at 10:13 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2011, 09:40 PM   #218
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default From the Collection of the Museo Poldi Pezzoli, Milano

Let's start with a really great two hand sword (spadone a due mani) with richly fullered blade, Veneto, ca. 1510, overall length 1,73 m.

Next in line is another, the hilt Venetian, the blade German, ca. 1535-40, overall length 1,53 m.

Then there is another, Italy, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,505 m.

The fourth item was made in Venetia using a German blade, ca. 1565, oa. length 1,38 m, a piece from the end of the period of Landsknechte.


So far for the great swords.

There is also a fine Landsknecht hand and a half sword with a single edged blade, South German or Swiss, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,28 m. Please note the perfectly original black and blueish colors of the hilt!

And, last not least, a fine South German or Swiss Katzbalger-Degen, the fine blackened hilt and Brezel-quillons characteristic of the 1540s;
oa. length 1,05 m. The grip wire binding including the Turk's heads is a later alteration.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
         

Last edited by Matchlock : 10th August 2011 at 02:05 AM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2011, 03:33 PM   #219
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micke D
Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D


Hi Micke,

this one is not my property but I do have the measurements for you.
allover length = 49.0 cm, cross-width = 10 cm

Blade: length = 36.5 cm, width = 3.8 cm

weight: 502 gram

Michael gave exactly the right period for this messer. around 1490

best,
jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2011, 10:03 AM   #220
Zwielicht
Member
 
Zwielicht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 26
Default

Ahh... again so many great things!

A few questions:

1) Are there a remains of a second ring on the messer's hilt? Two broken pieces in the center of a guard look like having a cross section just like a ring on another side, and remind it very closely, as for me.

2) And the first за those four two-handed swords - what are it's more detailed dimensions, if they are available? Weight, blade width and thickness, hilt length etc.
Zwielicht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2011, 07:39 PM   #221
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Zwielicht,

At the beginning of my latest post on the Italian Swords I gave all the measurements I had, according to their line of appearance.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2011, 07:34 PM   #222
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default A Katzbalger, ca. 1515-20, and a Broadsword, ca. 1550

... preserved in the Castel Sant' Angelo, Rome, the Katzbalger of unusual length and therefore probably mounted with a later blade!

m
Attached Images
   
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2011, 12:33 PM   #223
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,386
Default

Ah Michl,
Definitely your picture is much better than mine, 'secretely' taken with a friend's camera, when i visited the Castle last year.


Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2011, 06:00 PM   #224
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Oh 'Nando,

They are not mine, I found them on the web.

Best,
Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2011, 03:33 PM   #225
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

German two hand swords in the Norwich Castle museum: the one on the left a bearing sword of ca. 1600, the one on the right an early Landsknecht sword of ca. 1490, also illustrated in detail below.

Associated with the armor is a hand and a half sword of ca. 1550-60.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
  
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2011, 07:17 PM   #226
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi there,

Some 20 years ago, my friend Ottmar saw an unusually good and fine Katzbalger in perfect old patina in a North German private collection, and offered them what would 10,000 euro today. They would not sell though.

Today, that same piece - unfortunately cleaned meanwhile - was sold at auction by Czerny's, Italy, where it was fortunately labeled as 19th c. copy. So my friend bought it at the estimate of 1,500 euro.

Sometimes all you have to do is wait patiently ...

Now here it is, Southern Germany, ca. 1520, overall length 94.5 cm. Please note the small piece of wood inlaid in the iron grip and framed by a brass band, and the fine roped decoration on the hilt, which is characteristic of the early Renaissance period. The short lateral fullers at the base of the blade can be found on most original Katzbalgers.

The mark struck two times has not yet been identified, it might be a variation of the so-called Brescian eye though.

Enjoy, and best,
Michael
Attached Images
      

Last edited by Matchlock : 9th October 2011 at 08:24 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2011, 07:25 PM   #227
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,386
Default

Fantastic !!
Hey Michl, did you notice the auctioner dates it XIX century ?
... or is my italian far too rusted ?

-
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2011, 08:01 PM   #228
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock

sold at auction by Czerny's, Italy, where it was fortunately labeled as 19th c. copy. So my friend bought it at the estimate of 1,500 euro.



But that's exactly what I pointed out, 'Nando - and that's also what the joke is all about! It really is, as I said: ca. 1520 and all original!

Best,
Michl

Last edited by Matchlock : 9th October 2011 at 08:14 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2011, 08:05 PM   #229
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,386
Default

Sorry for being too speedy; didn't read the whole paragraph .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2011, 08:14 PM   #230
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

That's o.k., my friend,

Things like these tend to happen to old folks like us!

Michl
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2011, 06:44 PM   #231
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

A standard bearer Landsknecht with a short sword that could be called an early predecessor of a Katzbalger. Please note the slightly curved quillons.

Woodcut by Albrecht Dürer, 1502.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
  
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2011, 02:00 AM   #232
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
A Katzbalger ... preserved in the Castel Sant' Angelo, Rome, the Katzbalger of unusual length and therefore probably mounted with a later blade!
m


The pretzel quillons on this are a modern replacement of course. I just wished to make that perfectly clear.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2011, 05:38 AM   #233
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

For another good Katzbalger sword new to the market, and in our member Fernando's collection, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2011, 07:19 PM   #234
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

A good and rare Landsknecht one-hand sword, in excavated condition and missing its originally sandwiched and cord-bound leather-covered wooden grip scales, ca. 1525-30, just failed to sell at only 1.600 euro at the Dorotheum, Vienna.
Overall length ca. 110 cm.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
           

Last edited by Matchlock : 4th December 2011 at 07:44 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2011, 07:57 PM   #235
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

This one-hand sword is very similar to a hand-and-a-half sword of identical date, overall length 119.5 cm, preserved in the Historisches Museum Regensburg (author's photos attached, the one top is the one discussed here).

The blade bears a deeply-struck South German cross-and-orb mark.

m
Attached Images
            
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2011, 07:58 PM   #236
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

The orb-and-cross mark.
Attached Images
 
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2011, 01:02 PM   #237
cannonmn
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 153
Default Ulrich von Schellenberg sword





View item at Kunsthistorisches Museum
Identifier: HJRK_A_287
Format: Total: L. 88 cm, weight 1400 g Blade: L. 75 cm,

W 4.5 cm, weight 500 g gilded bronze, leather, brass
Publisher: Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer| Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight

Date: in 1515
Geographic coverage: South German
Type: Sword |Relation: Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer

Description: This from the southern German Landsknecht sword has a type of so-called Katzbalger eighth-shaped curved crossguard, which is heavily gold plated. The swing -up handle is duplicated four times with St. Andrew's cross, well-decorated as an indication of the closeness of the owner of the house of Habsburg. When the stitching on the knife-eaters there is a continuous poetic inscription.

Ulrich Schellenberg fought as Imperial officer in both Maximilian I and Charles V in Upper Italy against France and Venice. Caption: The inscriptions of the now lost awl grip caps and 4 Knives are out of the 19 Century, handed
down: ALS. IR. ZV. LIEB) / KAIN. FRED. ON. SI / ALS. MIT. GLVCK / ICH. WART. DER. ZIT / (ICH. LID. VND. SCHWIG) / ICH. HOFF. V .. See lessData provider: Kunsthistorisches Museum| Provider: Kulturpool| Austria| This record can be cited in the Harvard Bibliographic style using the text below:

(1515) Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight
Webpage available at link below:
[Accessed: November 29, 2011
09:27:18 PM]
cannonmn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2011, 01:08 PM   #238
cannonmn
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 153
Default Better photos wanted

If anyone has better photos of this sword or even the handle only, please post them here. I can buy them from the KHM but the cost may be more than it is worth for my little project.
cannonmn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2011, 07:49 PM   #239
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi John,

Here are better images of the von Schellenberg Katzbalger at the KHM Vienna. Thought I had posted them somewhere here before but can't find them.
The close-ups of the hilt in color at the bottom are mine. Even if you are lucky and get special permission like I did, and are allowed to use flashlight, taking good pictures is extremely critical in the Vienna exhibition (as in most museums when it comes down to guns ... ).

The blade mark on the ricasso is an Italian-style crowned Greek pi.

Enjoy,
Michael
Attached Images
          

Last edited by Matchlock : 7th December 2011 at 01:43 AM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2011, 11:13 PM   #240
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Those interested in Ulrich von Schellenberg's biography, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9689#post129689

m
Attached Images
  
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:35 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.