Breech loading 1450-1550

Matchlock · 3rd December 2011, 06:21 PM

Hi 'Nando,

I just adopted the assignment given by the auction house; of course I am not certain about their actual provenance. Your input is all the more valuable in this context.

Anyway, my opinion, though usually as well based as possible and backed up by more than 30 years of experience, is far from claiming to be a rule. I realize there are people out there who are able to add amendments. I only wish they would do that after all! All I've been hoping for when starting this has been a lively discussion!

Still hoping for the best,
Michl

broadaxe · 4th December 2011, 08:47 AM

Regarding the staff in Spiridonov's posts # 85-86: cannons may well reflect architecture of the period, but the staff - a.k.a. "pilgrim's staff" - is actually a weapon of its own with the ball forming a pommel and a handgaurd. The size is about the same as two-handed sword and deployment is a simplified version of fencing (no edge alignment, no trapping with the guard).

Attached is another publication photo from 1978 of a different breech loader from the coast of Israel, bronze barrel with iron breech. The second photo shows the same cannon today (bottom), with another one made of iron.

Matchlock · 4th December 2011, 04:20 PM

Thanks a lot for this interesting addition!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 28th October 2012, 10:38 PM

Hi all. I want to present you a painting of spanish artist Bartolomé Bermejo "Resurrection and the Descent of Christ" (about 1475). This picture is unique because we can see very rare case for XV century when firearms is presented on a religious theme painting. We can usually see the firearms on miniatures of chronics, technical books or arsenal inventors but not on religious story picture except of rare cases. But the main feature of this work of art is fact that hangonne held by the demon is breech loading! The barrel is similar to barrels of big breech loading guns of XV century with the typical replaceable powder chamber but much smaller than these. We can even see the breech handle.
I've taken the picture from flickr album of Andrea Carloni
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_...n/photostream/
p/s
Thanks to my ukrainian friend (Глеб Борисов/Gleb Borisov) who found this picture

fernando · 29th October 2012, 01:06 PM

Superb pictures, Alexander; thanks a lot for sharing them.
Say thanks to Глеб for bringing them to you.
If you don't mind, i will post a close up of the soldiers with the edged weapons, which are also intereting ... but not so much as the handgonne

.

broadaxe · 29th October 2012, 09:39 PM

Same kind of gun, real life, full size. Original cart & fittings, Schwarzenberg castle, Prague.

3rd December 2011, 06:21 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, I just adopted the assignment given by the auction house; of course I am not certain about their actual provenance. Your input is all the more valuable in this context. Anyway, my opinion, though usually as well based as possible and backed up by more than 30 years of experience, is far from claiming to be a rule. I realize there are people out there who are able to add amendments. I only wish they would do that after all! All I've been hoping for when starting this has been a lively discussion! Still hoping for the best, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 4th December 2011 at 01:05 AM.

4th December 2011, 08:47 AM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Regarding the staff in Spiridonov's posts # 85-86: cannons may well reflect architecture of the period, but the staff - a.k.a. "pilgrim's staff" - is actually a weapon of its own with the ball forming a pommel and a handgaurd. The size is about the same as two-handed sword and deployment is a simplified version of fencing (no edge alignment, no trapping with the guard). Attached is another publication photo from 1978 of a different breech loader from the coast of Israel, bronze barrel with iron breech. The second photo shows the same cannon today (bottom), with another one made of iron. Attached Images

28th October 2012, 10:38 PM	#4
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Hi all. I want to present you a painting of spanish artist Bartolomé Bermejo "Resurrection and the Descent of Christ" (about 1475). This picture is unique because we can see very rare case for XV century when firearms is presented on a religious theme painting. We can usually see the firearms on miniatures of chronics, technical books or arsenal inventors but not on religious story picture except of rare cases. But the main feature of this work of art is fact that hangonne held by the demon is breech loading! The barrel is similar to barrels of big breech loading guns of XV century with the typical replaceable powder chamber but much smaller than these. We can even see the breech handle. I've taken the picture from flickr album of Andrea Carloni http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_...n/photostream/ p/s Thanks to my ukrainian friend (Глеб Борисов/Gleb Borisov) who found this picture Attached Images Last edited by Spiridonov; 28th October 2012 at 10:53 PM.

29th October 2012, 01:06 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Superb pictures, Alexander; thanks a lot for sharing them. Say thanks to Глеб for bringing them to you. If you don't mind, i will post a close up of the soldiers with the edged weapons, which are also intereting ... but not so much as the handgonne . Attached Images

29th October 2012, 09:39 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Same kind of gun, real life, full size. Original cart & fittings, Schwarzenberg castle, Prague. Attached Images

4th December 2011, 04:20 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot for this interesting addition! Best, Michael