Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

Hi Dmitry,
these are just modern reproduction swords being sold for movie costuming use. Indian made by companies like Windlass, they are primarily just reproductions, readily availabe to the public as such on various websites. Much cheaper now than using the real thing but again, these are NOT for stage combat. They are dressing props, costuming.

There is only a superficial connection to this discussion.

You correctly repeat from my earlier observations that it was commonplace to use real swords that were cheap and plentiful for costuming/dressing scenes and to have modified versions of those same swords (sometimes with their blades replaced) for stage/staged combat.

What you seem to be trying to say is that in a time when genuine swords were plentiful, cheap and readily available in bulk quantities of identical type, or that classic 'rapier' type swords were routinely made from marrying fencing blades with a variety of other hilts, that film/theatre costumers were instead opting for more expensive, intiricate and historically incorrect individually hand made swords that were basically unift for purpose in the configuration that you'd have us believe they were received.
Why order a deadly, unmodified, heavy, military blade on a 'fantasy' prop?
Why have the hilt hand made from steel and not instead opt for (as many were) a cast base metal of flashy design with a 'safe' fencing epee blade suitable for stage combat or costuming?
Show me some provenanced period examples?

[Atlantia]

So, I'm going to throw some other suggestions out there.
I personally feel that there are a few options for this sword. Clearly the hilt is not a copy of any particular style, especially when married with a military blade. This is not a typical copy or 19thC reproduction.

Heavy military blade, good balance, peened tang, solid construction, etc. Quite fit for purpose.
I believe that it was professionally made in this configuration, not cobbled together at some later date.

Was it (and possibly others like Dmitry/Valjhuns) made by a sword supplier trying to capitalise on the 'Historismus' movement by producing a 'blending' of the modern and archaic in a still usable weapon?
Well clearly it IS a blending of styles and clearly it IS a usable weapon, so that would fit.
Clearly the makers were not attempting a historical copy, or flashy reproduction.
But regardless, was it made simply for 'show'?
Possibly, but why not make it more 'flashy' or historically accurate?
Why bother making it so 'usable'?
Was it made for a fraternal organisation or other archaic group as Jim suggests?
Seems like a good bet!
Was it a private commission for purpose unknown?
Possibly.

[fernando]

Hi Gene

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Heavy military blade ...

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene


I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Hi Nando,

Heavy in this rapier-esq guise

[Jim McDougall]

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

[katana]

Hi Gene ,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword .....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

Hi Jim,

The quest continues. Still no definative answers but I live in hope!
I've had the chance to show it to a couple of friends (collectors) with positive reviews but still no exact provenance.

I'm sure an answer will eventually turn up..... I just hope it's in my lifetime

Best
Gene