Fighting Techique?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...

Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.

I have seen one of these 'tri bladed' EU parrying daggers that open to three blades adapted for or made in Eastern style, I think it is seen in Islamic Arms and Armour from private Danish Collections....will need to check when I am with my books though.

Great thoughts on the scissor Katar Lew.

Gav

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by freebooter

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.

Good one! I never thought of that but you are right - the handle assembly on a dhal is not unlike a katar grip. I can now see how one coudl hold both in the left hand with only the tip of katar extending past the edge of the shield crating a deadly point. Perhaps this is how madu shield came to be? And speaking a madu, this is trully a defence with which you don't even need a sword!

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Here's a suggestion for the use of shields.

They're much better than swords at blocking arrows.

Once decent muskets came along, effective shields became unmanageably heavy, as did armor. Lugging a flintlock and a shield for hand-to-hand combat is a bit awkward, and I'm willing to bet that this is when shields were largely discarded.

F

Good observation! You're right. Shields began to dwindle as firearms became more prevalent. Dedicated hand to hand weapons started to diminish when firearms got even more effective.

Originally Posted by freebooter

Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.

Just curious, what time period were those most prevalent?

[Jim McDougall]

The Indian shield (dhal) was used as noted, of course to block cuts and in parry....much as with sabre of the steppes and Central Asia, the horseman used the draw cut. As far as I have known there was little or any 'scheduled' parrying or sword to sword contact with tulwars, shamshirs or these types of swords....parrying was the work of the shield.
It seems most of the 'fencing' techniques described here with left hand dagger (gauche) are from European styles, and would suggest or involve sword to sword combat. Obviously, in the heat of combat virtually anything can happen, and combatants can and will resort to use of any means or object if thier weapons become compromised.

The katar was intended largely as a close in fighting weapon, actually in most cases more of a misercorde (coup de grace) as described in some references.
The large katars of the Deccan and South were actually used as slashing weapons, as were the patas as used by Mahrattas, often in pairs in rather a 'windmill' fashion, in demonstrations at least....unsure if such techniques used in actual combat, but as noted, probably circumstantially they may have been.

Personally I cannot imagine a katar as a parrying weapon, but it seems that some of the innovative forms with splaying sections of blade and multiple blades did imply such use after the introduction of European weapons and form. As described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Castle, 1884) many of these 'left hand daggers' of innovative character were more for show than actual use in Europe, but again those observations can be presumed only in degree.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The Indian shield (dhal) was used as noted, of course to block cuts and in parry....much as with sabre of the steppes and Central Asia, the horseman used the draw cut. As far as I have known there was little or any 'scheduled' parrying or sword to sword contact with tulwars, shamshirs or these types of swords....parrying was the work of the shield.
It seems most of the 'fencing' techniques described here with left hand dagger (gauche) are from European styles, and would suggest or involve sword to sword combat. Obviously, in the heat of combat virtually anything can happen, and combatants can and will resort to use of any means or object if thier weapons become compromised.

The katar was intended largely as a close in fighting weapon, actually in most cases more of a misercorde (coup de grace) as described in some references.
The large katars of the Deccan and South were actually used as slashing weapons, as were the patas as used by Mahrattas, often in pairs in rather a 'windmill' fashion, in demonstrations at least....unsure if such techniques used in actual combat, but as noted, probably circumstantially they may have been.

Personally I cannot imagine a katar as a parrying weapon, but it seems that some of the innovative forms with splaying sections of blade and multiple blades did imply such use after the introduction of European weapons and form. As described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Castle, 1884) many of these 'left hand daggers' of innovative character were more for show than actual use in Europe, but again those observations can be presumed only in degree.

Salaams Jim, Excellent letter thank you. As usual well researched and accurate. There is a misconception that a shield is only a parrying and blocking weapon. I have seen a video clip on forum of the shields use as a striking weapon to the head and neck targets using the edge ~


As usual demonstration swordwork employing windmill tactics was a martial skill thus therefor used in actual fighting. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Excellent letter thank you. As usual well researched and accurate. There is a misconception that a shield is only a parrying and blocking weapon. I have seen a video clip on forum of the shields use as a striking weapon to the head and neck targets using the edge ~


As usual demonstration swordwork employing windmill tactics was a martial skill thus therefor used in actual fighting. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you so much Ibrahiim!!!

[sirupate]

Extracts from 'Britain's Gurkha War' by John Pemble;
In an incident at Kalanga dismounted 8th Royal Irish Light Dragoons, who where at the forefront of an attack became over extended;
'Nepali soldiers were swarming over the walls of the fort to support their comrades. Khukuri unsheathed, they engaged the oncoming Dragoons in a fierce hand-to-hand struggle, thrusting within the point of the sabres and parrying every swipe before it could be completed with shields born on the left arm. These they wielded with dazzling dexterity' within a few minutes, fifty eight Dragoons were lying wounded and four dead.

Parsa Ram Thapa engaged in combat with Lt. Boileau, wounding him with a sabre thrust in the thigh; but a quick-thinking sepoy, Rama Sahai Singh, swiped at Thapa from behind, when Thapa turned Lt Boileau cut him through the skull.

At Niakot Captain Croker in personnel combat killed the Nepalese chief Suraj Thapa, and Ensign John Ship engaged Sarda Krishna Bahadur Rana 'I made a feint at his toes, to cut them; down went his shield from his face, to save his legs; up went the edge of my sword smack under his chin'.

At Malaun Captain Charles Shower's in an effort to spur his men on (1st/19th Native Infantry), ran forward and challenged a Nepalese Officer, he soon had the upper hand, run him through with his sword. However, he couldn't get the sword out, and some Nepalese soldiers sprang forward stabbing him to death (probably spear), his sepoy's retreated. However Captain Shower's had earned the respect of the Nepalese, and as a consequence when the bearers went to collect his body the next day, they found it on a bed of leaves wrapped in fine cloth, as is the custom in such circumstances.


Through the Indian Mutiny;
The Memoirs of James Fairweather, 4th Punjab Native Infantry 1857-58, by William Wright
Quote from the War Correspondent W.H. Russell in 1858 whilst visiting the hospital in Kiddepore ‘On enquiry, I found that a great proportion of the wounds, many of them very serious and severe, were inflicted by the sabre or native tulwar. There were more sword-cuts in the two hospitals than I saw after Balaklava.’

‘Major Coke (1st Punjab Infantry) received a severe wound in the shoulder ... His native adjutant, Mir Jaffir, was wounded was wounded at his side, and received another bullet through his shield ...’ (Billy Paget CO of the 5th Punjab Cavalry, and friend of Fairweather)

On the journey from Calcutta to Lahore, in the Punjab, Fairweather notes; ‘The people working in the fields, in many cases with shields on their backs and tulwars by their side.’

Fairweather on the men in the regiment; ‘The men of the regiment were from all the fighting classes – Sikhs, Pathans, Dogras, Punjabis, Mussulmen, and Hindustanis (a few). They were armed with the Brunswick two grooved rifle and a sword bayonet, but many of the native officers and some of the men carried also their iron tulwar with a shield on their backs.’

Authors notes reference Dighton Probyn VC (CO 2nd Punjab cavalry) and John Watson VC (CO 1st Punjab cavalry), they were great friends and great swordsman both using curved sabres (from what I can judge they were of the Shamshir/Mameluke design), ‘hit first and hit hardest’ was their only rule.

At the battle of Bareilly Fairweather notes that 'the Ghazis were so drugged with bhang that they did not know whether they were striking with the flat or the edge of their swords'

(General Campbell, still carried a pipe backed 1796 LCS, On the 10th October 1857, the mutineers posing as jugglers etc did a surprise attack at the camp in Agra. The senior Officers were having breakfast in the fort, and some were slow to respond. However the Adjutant-General Henry Norman borrowed Sir Colin Campbell's sword cutting down two mutineers as he galloped to help repel the attack)

From; new.fibis.org;
Just as the 42d reached the old lines, they were met by the Punjabees in full flight, followed by a lot of Gazees carrying tulwars and shields.

Ian Coghlan; 42d Royal Highland Regiment, Am Freiceadan Dubh "The Black Watch", VII 1856-1869;
At the battle of Bareilly General Sir Colin Campbell had a close escape (9); His eye caught that of a quasi dead Gazee, who was lying, tulwar in hand, just before him. The Chief guessed the ruse in a moment. “Bayonet that man!” he called to a soldier. The Highlander made a thrust at him, but the point would not enter the thick cotton quilting of the Gazee’s tunic; and the dead man was rising to his legs, when a Sikh who happened to be near, with a whistling stroke of his sabre cut off the Gazee’s head at one blow, as if it had been the bulb of a poppy!! The Gazee’s were fine fellows, grizzly bearded elderly men for the most part, with green turbans and cummerbunds, and every one of them had a silver signet ring, with a long text of the Koran written on it. They came on with the heads down below their shields, and their tulwars flashing as they whirled them over their heads.

[sirupate]

I had the pleasure of meeting Nidar Singh, and comparing kukri and sabre techniques, he certainly had defensive techniques with the Tulwar.
Also his use of the Dhal was much like in Nepal were the dhal was both offensive and defensive in its use, size being a factor in its effectiveness offensively.

[katana]

Here is an older posting regarding Tulwar fighting technique which you may find interesting....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=indian+hand

Kind Regards David

[Stan S.]

Thank you, David. Unfortunately the videos seem to be password protected, so I could not view them You wouldn't happen to have a password?

[katana]

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Thank you, David. Unfortunately the videos seem to be password protected, so I could not view them You wouldn't happen to have a password?

Hi,
previously they were not password protected , which is a shame they were quite good. Generally searching for 'Gatka' will yield results on youtube etc but quality varies enormously.

Here are a few ....not all sword though

http://www.woma.tv/movies/1SH/gatka-...grappling.html
http://www.woma.tv/movies/1SI/gatka-...n-shields.html
http://www.woma.tv/movies/1SK/gatka-...of-spears.html

Kind Regards David

[KuKulzA28]

Perhaps looking for Niddar's videos of Shastar Vidiya would help shed some light. He often makes a big emphasis on timing, footwork, and spacing, and many of his demonstrations are without a shield in hand...

Just a thought