Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Gene! I think we're still pretty much on the same page. I for some reason still feel there was a more sound purpose for these weapons, and I think my pursuit in this direction suggests my apparant 'Quixote syndrome'
I suppose that my often near delusional romanticism concerning arms causes my disdain for the categoric dismissal of these as simply wallhangers or 'theatrical' pieces, while that of course is the easy assessment. In what I have learned about our societies in these 18th and 19th century times there were far more romantic delusions in popular culture than typically perceived historically. It seems that the penchant for secret societies, magical allusions, unusual religious and political pursuits in almost cult like character and of course organizations with more regimented character such as the Masons, and many fraternal and military organizations was prevalent in those times.

Often in post war circumstances, while demand for weapons waned, there were notable increases in such societal groupings, and particularly veterans of the military were powerfully represented in these many variant organizations. Political situations also brought national groups into effect who sought to preserve their country's heritage and past glories. The extremely colorful pageantry of today's reeenactment groups have distinct antecedents almost ironically in the periods which they anachronistically represent, in an almost telescopic analogy.

In studying the arms and armour of colonial New Spain, of course with the Conquistadors in the beginning, the images typically issued in literary or art treatments are actually far from how these forces were equipped. There were no 'issue' materials and most individuals were privately supplied. They used all manner of inexpensive surplus and composite items as could be obtained in thier home country, or in arriving supplies brought in. I believe thier 'countenance' would have been almost 'Quixotesque'. In studies of the armour used it has been discovered that types long obsolete in Europe had survived in these colonial regions far beyond thier antiquity.

The point is that in most cases, cultures and societies seek to preserve and celebrate thier ancestral heritage, and often this involves unusual or even seemingly 'eccentric' use or anachronistic representation of materials and fashion. In mant instances traditional court and dress weaponry, while appearing ostentatious or ineffective combatively, in surprisingly numerous cases was actually quite serviceable.

As mentioned, sword makers in peacetime often sought related venues to augment diminished demand including of course various tools and implements. However, they were not far removed from the skills and tooling to fashion the swords previously produced nor variations of earlier forms as required. If there were stores of surplus blades still held as orders for certain sword types ceased at end of hostilities or in cases or supercession, then these could certainly have been used for custom requests in varying volume.

There would be no need for trying to 'duplicate' marks, nor to remove them and the makers of these composite classical creations would have been actual swordmakers, not artisans fabricating decorative pieces.

In my opinion the concept of 'theatrical' pieces is often a bit 'overplayed' and as many as it seems have been given such assessment would presume there were virtual hordes of theatrical troupes moving about with huge stockpiles of arms and props. Actually these groups were much more a novelty than even imagined, thus the accordingly notable reception they received when they appeared.
With the idea of wallhangers, it seems there was more attention given in earlier times in replicas to armour than to swords. Actually the availability of 'old swords' was considerably well supplied and it would seem curious that anyone who had the somewhat unusual need to display an old sword would have had ample opportunity to acquire authentic old pieces almost at random. Arms collecting is more a modern phenomenon, though it was practiced in earlier times among certain nobility and gentry in degree. It was not until the latter 19th century that souveniers were gathered and displayed more nominally and these were typically of 'exotic' weapons, while as mentioned the demand for vintage European armour of illustrious heritage was more high end.

BTW, I agree the script would most likely be as Fernando suggested originally and well worked out by he and Gene...Klingenthal.

I guess this typical tirade of mine would be a nickel or so worth but my thoughts.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Gene! I think we're still pretty much on the same page. I for some reason still feel there was a more sound purpose for these weapons, and I think my pursuit in this direction suggests my apparant 'Quixote syndrome'
I suppose that my often near delusional romanticism concerning arms causes my disdain for the categoric dismissal of these as simply wallhangers or 'theatrical' pieces, while that of course is the easy assessment. In what I have learned about our societies in these 18th and 19th century times there were far more romantic delusions in popular culture than typically perceived historically. It seems that the penchant for secret societies, magical allusions, unusual religious and political pursuits in almost cult like character and of course organizations with more regimented character such as the Masons, and many fraternal and military organizations.

Often in post war circumstances, while demand for weapons waned, there were notable increases in such societal groupings, and particularly veterans of the military were powerfully represented in these many variant organizations. Political situations also brought national groups into effect who sought to preserve their country's heritage and past glories. The extremely colorful pageantry of today's reeenactment groups have distinct antecedents almost ironically in the periods which they anachronistically represent, in an almost telescopic analogy.

In studying the arms and armour of colonial New Spain, of course with the Conquistadors in the beginning, the images typically issued in literary or art treatments are actually far from how these forces were equipped. There were no 'issue' materials and most individuals were privately supplied. They used all manner of inexpensive surplus and composite items as could be obtained in thier home country, or in arriving supplies brought in. I believe thier 'countenance' would have been almost 'Quixotesque'. In studies of the armour used it has been discovered that types long obsolete in Europe had survived in these colonial regions far beyond thier antiquity.

The point is that in most cases, cultures and societies seek to preserve and celebrate thier ancestral heritage, and often this involves unusual or even seemingly 'eccentric' use or anachronistic representation of materials and fashion. In mant instances traditional court and dress weaponry, while appearing ostentatious or ineffective combatively, in surprisingly numerous cases was actually quite serviceable.

As mentioned, sword makers in peacetime often sought related venues to augment diminished demand including of course various tools and implements. However, they were not far removed from the skills and tooling to fashion the swords previously produced nor variations of earlier forms as required. If there were stores of surplus blades still held as orders for certain sword types ceased at end of hostilities or in cases or supercession, then these could certainly have been used for custom requests in varying volume.

There would be no need for trying to 'duplicate' marks, nor to remove them and the makers of these composite classical creations would have been actual swordmakers, not artisans fabricating decorative pieces.

In my opinion the concept of 'theatrical' pieces is often a bit 'overplayed' and as many as it seems have been given such assessment would presume there were virtual hordes of theatrical troupes moving about with huge stockpiles of arms and props. Actually these groups were much more a novelty than even imagined, thus the accordingly notable reception they received when they appeared.
With the idea of wallhangers, it seems there was more attention given in earlier times in replicas to armour than to swords. Actually the availability of 'old swords' was considerably well supplied and it would seem curious that anyone who had the somewhat unusual need to display an old sword would have had ample opportunity to acquire authentic old pieces almost at random. Arms collecting is more a modern phenomenon, though it was practiced in earlier times among certain nobility and gentry in degree. It was not until the latter 19th century that souveniers were gathered and displayed more nominally and these were typically of 'exotic' weapons, while as mentioned the demand for armour of illustrious heritage was more high end.

BTW, I agree the script would most likely be as Fernando suggested originally and well worked out by he and Gene...Klingenthal.

I guess this typical tirade of mine would be a nickel or so worth but my thoughts.

I'd say completely on the same page Jim.
Can't disagree with anything there mate.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!!

All the best,
Jim

LOL, I'm now picturing you swashbuckling your way across the stage Jim!
"take that you blaggard"

Fair comment, there were plenty of real swords and myriad other antiques used for background dressing, non combat roles and 'beauty' shots.

Many 'real' ones were cheap though. Often they'd have complete ones for non combat 'hero' props and modified ones of the same type for combat, switching when needed.


Best
Gene

P.S. Any pictures of you on stage in your cape?

[Dmitry]

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

No worries. Happy thanksgiving.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

Hi Dmitry,
these are just modern reproduction swords being sold for movie costuming use. Indian made by companies like Windlass, they are primarily just reproductions, readily availabe to the public as such on various websites. Much cheaper now than using the real thing but again, these are NOT for stage combat. They are dressing props, costuming.

There is only a superficial connection to this discussion.

You correctly repeat from my earlier observations that it was commonplace to use real swords that were cheap and plentiful for costuming/dressing scenes and to have modified versions of those same swords (sometimes with their blades replaced) for stage/staged combat.

What you seem to be trying to say is that in a time when genuine swords were plentiful, cheap and readily available in bulk quantities of identical type, or that classic 'rapier' type swords were routinely made from marrying fencing blades with a variety of other hilts, that film/theatre costumers were instead opting for more expensive, intiricate and historically incorrect individually hand made swords that were basically unift for purpose in the configuration that you'd have us believe they were received.
Why order a deadly, unmodified, heavy, military blade on a 'fantasy' prop?
Why have the hilt hand made from steel and not instead opt for (as many were) a cast base metal of flashy design with a 'safe' fencing epee blade suitable for stage combat or costuming?
Show me some provenanced period examples?

[Atlantia]

So, I'm going to throw some other suggestions out there.
I personally feel that there are a few options for this sword. Clearly the hilt is not a copy of any particular style, especially when married with a military blade. This is not a typical copy or 19thC reproduction.

Heavy military blade, good balance, peened tang, solid construction, etc. Quite fit for purpose.
I believe that it was professionally made in this configuration, not cobbled together at some later date.

Was it (and possibly others like Dmitry/Valjhuns) made by a sword supplier trying to capitalise on the 'Historismus' movement by producing a 'blending' of the modern and archaic in a still usable weapon?
Well clearly it IS a blending of styles and clearly it IS a usable weapon, so that would fit.
Clearly the makers were not attempting a historical copy, or flashy reproduction.
But regardless, was it made simply for 'show'?
Possibly, but why not make it more 'flashy' or historically accurate?
Why bother making it so 'usable'?
Was it made for a fraternal organisation or other archaic group as Jim suggests?
Seems like a good bet!
Was it a private commission for purpose unknown?
Possibly.

[fernando]

Hi Gene

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Heavy military blade ...

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.