Fighting Techique?

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Stan S. I imagine that losing ones shield could have disastrous results since not only was the defence not available but the balance of the swordsman dramatically altered. If no buckler is available the arab technique employed especially in the UAE was to use a sandal to deflect incoming strikes. I suspect more fighters lost their sword than their shield..but in either case .. not good.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A sandal, eh? How interesting! Somehow I get this mental image of Jackie Chan using all these ordinary objects (like shoes) in a fight scene in one of his movies But seriously, this makes perfect sense, and is not unlike European manuscripts showing fencers from the Renaissance times using a cape wrapped around a left hand to deflect opponent’s blows.

Would it be safe to assume that when not on the battlefield, a man carried a sword without a shield (such as during the peace times in an urban setting), and the contingency plan was to use an article of clothing in combination with a sword should he come under attack?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Stan S.

A sandal, eh? How interesting! Somehow I get this mental image of Jackie Chan using all these ordinary objects (like shoes) in a fight scene in one of his movies But seriously, this makes perfect sense, and is not unlike European manuscripts showing fencers from the Renaissance times using a cape wrapped around a left hand to deflect opponent’s blows.

Would it be safe to assume that when not on the battlefield, a man carried a sword without a shield (such as during the peace times in an urban setting), and the contingency plan was to use an article of clothing in combination with a sword should he come under attack?

Salaams,
The interesting question relates to when was the shield dispensed with ? The sword became Iconic and carried as a badge of office thus the shield was seldom carried on normal visits for example to the Royal Court or meetings with dignatories.. Rather than carry a hefty great weapon( and shield) into meetings of court I imagine that the term court sword (for the lightweight court sword worn more for show than anything else) evolved. In the event of a weapons encounter anything would be better than nothing and a cloak could be a useful parrying device or another short sword or perhaps bollock dagger in the shield hand.. thus fighting with 2 blades which I believe was a style of combat.

An entire combat technique formed around sword and buckler use in Europe (and in fact, though differently, in Oman) and that combination would often be carried.

bhushan_lawate ... Salaams,Very interesting to read of the battle you depict...

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[KuKulzA28]

I don't practice any Indian martial arts, but fighting is fighting...

One can use footwork, spacing, and timing to avoid being struck - and deflections/blocks with the blade if necessary. When at a diagonal to the enemy, you aren't in their optimum striking area and they must adjust to both attack and defend most effectively - there they are vulnerable. One can use spacing by being just within range of the enemy, then leaning back (like a pendulum affect) to avoid being struck and then leaning back in to destroy the enemy. And timing... angling away while striking at the enemy arm, wrist, hand, knee, etc. while their strike is coming is a good "buzz kill" for your opponent. Of course blocking and deflecting with blades isn't ideal but there's different techniques for that as well. And of course, do not forget kicks to the groin, knees, and shins when close. If you have a superior angle, timing, and cripple the enemy's rooting - it's hard for them to effectively attack you. Also, anyone mid-movement or in transition is vulnerable to an attack - thus if your timing is on point, you can catch them at the moment they are least prepared to defend. Fakes and feints are also useful. THere's a whole arsenal of tactics and principles - obviously however, a shield would help a lot, though it makes it harder to grab.

In Chinese martial arts, when concerning the dao/saber, they say when dan dao (single) watch out for the free hand ('cause of grabbing), and when shuang dao (double sabers) watch the feet...

But then again, in military settings Chinese have often used shields - it's usually in civilian settings and late-Qing/early Republican that swords were used without shields

How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...

[Lew]

How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...[/QUOTE]

Well I think the katar was used as a parrying dagger much like the European left handed dagger was used in a duel. In fact the scissor katar may have come from this type of trident left handed dagger?

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by Lew

Well I think the katar was used as a parrying dagger much like the European left handed dagger was used in a duel. In fact the scissor katar may have come from this type of trident left handed dagger?

If that's the case then I am unfamiliar with parrying-daggers, etc.
I was also under the impression that the three-section daggers/katars were more fragile?

I also thought that there were forms/techniques for using the long blade to tie-up or get past the opponent's main weapon and using the katar to finish them. However, I'm sure there were many many different styles and preferences as far as shield, katar, or both in same hand, left-handed dagger, dual tulwars, single tulwar, etc.

Might be time to do more research and learn even more

[fearn]

Here's a suggestion for the use of shields.

They're much better than swords at blocking arrows.

Once decent muskets came along, effective shields became unmanageably heavy, as did armor. Lugging a flintlock and a shield for hand-to-hand combat is a bit awkward, and I'm willing to bet that this is when shields were largely discarded.

F

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...

Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.

I have seen one of these 'tri bladed' EU parrying daggers that open to three blades adapted for or made in Eastern style, I think it is seen in Islamic Arms and Armour from private Danish Collections....will need to check when I am with my books though.

Great thoughts on the scissor Katar Lew.

Gav

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by freebooter

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.

Good one! I never thought of that but you are right - the handle assembly on a dhal is not unlike a katar grip. I can now see how one coudl hold both in the left hand with only the tip of katar extending past the edge of the shield crating a deadly point. Perhaps this is how madu shield came to be? And speaking a madu, this is trully a defence with which you don't even need a sword!

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Here's a suggestion for the use of shields.

They're much better than swords at blocking arrows.

Once decent muskets came along, effective shields became unmanageably heavy, as did armor. Lugging a flintlock and a shield for hand-to-hand combat is a bit awkward, and I'm willing to bet that this is when shields were largely discarded.

F

Good observation! You're right. Shields began to dwindle as firearms became more prevalent. Dedicated hand to hand weapons started to diminish when firearms got even more effective.

Originally Posted by freebooter

Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.

Just curious, what time period were those most prevalent?

[Jim McDougall]

The Indian shield (dhal) was used as noted, of course to block cuts and in parry....much as with sabre of the steppes and Central Asia, the horseman used the draw cut. As far as I have known there was little or any 'scheduled' parrying or sword to sword contact with tulwars, shamshirs or these types of swords....parrying was the work of the shield.
It seems most of the 'fencing' techniques described here with left hand dagger (gauche) are from European styles, and would suggest or involve sword to sword combat. Obviously, in the heat of combat virtually anything can happen, and combatants can and will resort to use of any means or object if thier weapons become compromised.

The katar was intended largely as a close in fighting weapon, actually in most cases more of a misercorde (coup de grace) as described in some references.
The large katars of the Deccan and South were actually used as slashing weapons, as were the patas as used by Mahrattas, often in pairs in rather a 'windmill' fashion, in demonstrations at least....unsure if such techniques used in actual combat, but as noted, probably circumstantially they may have been.

Personally I cannot imagine a katar as a parrying weapon, but it seems that some of the innovative forms with splaying sections of blade and multiple blades did imply such use after the introduction of European weapons and form. As described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Castle, 1884) many of these 'left hand daggers' of innovative character were more for show than actual use in Europe, but again those observations can be presumed only in degree.