Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

Matchlock · 21st November 2011, 08:56 PM

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 21st November 2011, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin

Matchlock · 21st November 2011, 09:16 PM

Exactly, 'Nando,

The blade is of early 19th c. date.

m

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 09:46 PM

Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 09:56 PM

Nicely peened tang

fernando · 21st November 2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Other things have such particularity

Atlantia · 22nd November 2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Other things have such particularity

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

fernando · 22nd November 2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

I mean other things

; oh ... forget it

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 10:00 PM

Comparison with other rapiers and swords showing the similarity in length to 19thC sabres

Dmitry · 21st November 2011, 10:48 PM

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02

Matchlock · 21st November 2011, 11:24 PM

Well done, Gene,

A homogeneous 19th c. collection.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2011, 01:56 AM

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade

undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT!

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 22nd November 2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02

Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Dmitry · 22nd November 2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

fernando · 21st November 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword

.

.

Atlantia · 22nd November 2011, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword

.

.

Good catch Nando. Well spotted

Atlantia · 22nd November 2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I do find these late anomalies to be very interesting. I've had and seen some very fancy 19thC constructions before, but this one although plainer than many, has the edge in balance and functionality.
I'm very pleased with it

Thanks again
Gene

21st November 2011, 09:16 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, 'Nando, The blade is of early 19th c. date. m Last edited by Matchlock; 21st November 2011 at 11:22 PM.

21st November 2011, 09:46 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi gentlemen. Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger? Attached Images

21st November 2011, 09:56 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Nicely peened tang Attached Images

21st November 2011, 10:00 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Comparison with other rapiers and swords showing the similarity in length to 19thC sabres Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 21st November 2011 at 10:24 PM.

22nd November 2011, 01:56 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here. Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts). The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837). I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form. I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances. I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time. Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd November 2011 at 02:18 AM.

21st November 2011, 08:56 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Gene, In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled. Best, Michael

21st November 2011, 10:48 PM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate. Just my $.02

21st November 2011, 11:24 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well done, Gene, A homogeneous 19th c. collection. Best, Michael