Sudanese kaskara - Arabic translation request

A.alnakkas · 17th November 2011, 09:07 AM

Hello guys,

Sorry its taking me a while to translate this. I am busy with my mid terms so studying and other stuff are taking my time. Promise to translate what I can once am free :-)

A.alnakkas · 17th November 2011, 09:10 AM

I think its a poem by doing a superficial reading.

It also contains a reference to Imam Ali (La fata ella Ali Alkaraar, wa la saif ela thul Fiqar.) The interesting part about this reference is that it contains Alkaraar, which is a title to Imam Ali that means: the Slayer. I never seen it on a blade :-)

Edit: interesting find is that the Imam Ali reference has a grammatical mistake, replacing La with Ma (Ma fata ella Ali.. wa ma saif ela thul fiqar).. its strange how the scribe will make such a mistake while writing a poem.. hmm

More later

stephen wood · 17th November 2011, 10:54 AM

...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

A.alnakkas · 17th November 2011, 11:11 AM

No idea, maybe. The poem itself mention lion often. Just the problem with such caligraphy is that one shouldnt rush to translate it on first sight.

A.alnakkas · 25th November 2011, 06:30 AM

Hey guys,

So I finished mid terms, think I did alright :-)

I managed to read the poem and understand the words, but this poem is using a very good classical arabic, I wont try to translate it emmediately as I may get the meaning completely wrong. For now, I am trying to find the poem on the internet to try to understand it more.

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2011, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

These stylized lions are taken from certain mid 19th century Solingen markings and as perceived tribally were seen as representing a brave warrior, much as various markings meanings were adopted and transcribed into thier symbolism. These markings also seen in Saharan takouba.

Dom · 29th November 2011, 01:34 AM

Hi
without prejudice, just an idea that comes as well
the lion is associated with "Assad Allah of Isphahan" famous swordsmith
"Assad Allah" (the Lion of God)
and signed ... with a "lion" brand that was taken, copied, and even abused,
the stamp was so ... too much famous
...why not been exported and used on Sudan,
as has been done in ... India

never forget that,
in the Arabic the word "Prestige", it's translated by ... "Prestige"
it's so important in society ... trust me

à +

Dom

Iain · 29th November 2011, 02:12 AM

My understanding was also that the lion rampant was adapted from European blades in the context of kaskara and takouba, as it is a mark found on both 19th century trade blades and much older blades as well - see Briggs, Morel etc. And then absorbed into marks regarded locally has holding meaning and power like Jim mentioned.

However it could easily have taken on multiple meanings once introduced including the intriguing idea Dom mentioned.

Any luck with the translation A.alnakkas? I'm quite curious about the poem as well as the errors of the scribe you mentioned.

A.alnakkas · 29th November 2011, 05:52 AM

Hey Iain,

I translated alot of it. But cant find the poem anywhere. Most people (me included) hesitate to translate classic arabic. Will see what I can do today.

17th November 2011, 10:54 AM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Asadullah - Lion of Allah ...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

17th November 2011, 09:07 AM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello guys, Sorry its taking me a while to translate this. I am busy with my mid terms so studying and other stuff are taking my time. Promise to translate what I can once am free :-)

17th November 2011, 09:10 AM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I think its a poem by doing a superficial reading. It also contains a reference to Imam Ali (La fata ella Ali Alkaraar, wa la saif ela thul Fiqar.) The interesting part about this reference is that it contains Alkaraar, which is a title to Imam Ali that means: the Slayer. I never seen it on a blade :-) Edit: interesting find is that the Imam Ali reference has a grammatical mistake, replacing La with Ma (Ma fata ella Ali.. wa ma saif ela thul fiqar).. its strange how the scribe will make such a mistake while writing a poem.. hmm More later

17th November 2011, 11:11 AM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	No idea, maybe. The poem itself mention lion often. Just the problem with such caligraphy is that one shouldnt rush to translate it on first sight.

25th November 2011, 06:30 AM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey guys, So I finished mid terms, think I did alright :-) I managed to read the poem and understand the words, but this poem is using a very good classical arabic, I wont try to translate it emmediately as I may get the meaning completely wrong. For now, I am trying to find the poem on the internet to try to understand it more.

29th November 2011, 01:34 AM	#7
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi without prejudice, just an idea that comes as well the lion is associated with "Assad Allah of Isphahan" famous swordsmith "Assad Allah" (the Lion of God) and signed ... with a "lion" brand that was taken, copied, and even abused, the stamp was so ... too much famous ...why not been exported and used on Sudan, as has been done in ... India never forget that, in the Arabic the word "Prestige", it's translated by ... "Prestige" it's so important in society ... trust me à + Dom

29th November 2011, 02:12 AM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	My understanding was also that the lion rampant was adapted from European blades in the context of kaskara and takouba, as it is a mark found on both 19th century trade blades and much older blades as well - see Briggs, Morel etc. And then absorbed into marks regarded locally has holding meaning and power like Jim mentioned. However it could easily have taken on multiple meanings once introduced including the intriguing idea Dom mentioned. Any luck with the translation A.alnakkas? I'm quite curious about the poem as well as the errors of the scribe you mentioned.

29th November 2011, 05:52 AM	#9
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Iain, I translated alot of it. But cant find the poem anywhere. Most people (me included) hesitate to translate classic arabic. Will see what I can do today.