Seven village metal?

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2011, 02:59 AM

I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments.

I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing.

Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production.

Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs.

Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

Gustav · 11th November 2011, 10:31 AM

Here some excerpts from a text, accompanying Ki Mantle Hood's field gamelan recordings (1957-58), released by a very serious label:

Over the centuries, expensive bronze metal has been associated with royalty, wealthy patrons and land owners. Rural communities of modest economic means use inferior, less costly metals such as brass and iron for gamelan construction.
(...)

The gongsmit is a venerated member of Javanese society entrusted with the very important job of gamelan construction as he works with a medium believed to connect the human world with the spirit world. On the neighbouring island of Bali, the Prakempa, a 19th century palm-leaf manuscript about gamelan, outlines the relation between struck bronze and the human spirit. The text describes the sonic affect of struck bronze on a person's inner qualities (sanubari). This is what alters a person's spirit when gamelan music is heard. It is also what motivates people to learn music. According to this Balinese manuscript, a gongsmit or gamelan teacher must be aware that bronze has the power to affect individual's inner qualities (Hood, Made Mantle - Triguna: a Hindu-Balinese Philosophy for Gamelan Gong Geded Music. Unpublished Dissertation, University of Cologne, 2005).

Bronze instruments have contributed to the "survival" of inimitable tuning systems or laras in today's increasingly homogenised, predominantly western diatonic urban soundscape. Gamelan forged from good quality bronze has resisted some of this onslaught because of the crystallization process of the bronze metal itself.

When Gamelan is newly forged (not cast), gongs and keys are tuned by scraping and cold-hammering their surfaces and undersides until the desired fine-tuning is accomplished. After the entire orchestra is fine-tuned, it is played for about a year, the bronze metal enduring repeated strikes from player's hard wooden or paddled mallets during rehearsal and performance. After approximately a year has passed, a gongsmit will once again scrape and hammer any keys or kettlegongs that need adjustment. Depending on how often the gamelan is played, it will be another four or five years before the instruments require another fine-tuning. With the passing of each year, the mollecules of smelted tin and copper become more dense, compact and the metal begins to crystallize, becoming harder, and thus more stable in holding its tone. By the time a good quality gamelan reaches 30 years of age, its tuning has become quite stable indeed, requiring only small adjustments and occasional key or gong replacements (also Hood (2005:77-79).

This does not mean that laras are perfectly preserved, representing tuning systems hundreds of years old in ancient gamelan orchestras. Each generation of tuners that put their smithing tools in action has different reference ponts, personal preference, and an altering sound-scape surrounding them. However, bronze instruments have the added advantage of relative fixity in tuning, unlike string or wind instruments that mutate with contemporary Indonesia's homogenized palette of musical sound. Despite the decline in gamelan tuning diversity in Central Java, as of yet there is no equal or well- tempered tuning system.

Gustav · 11th November 2011, 10:46 AM

There are also some keris blades made from different non typical alloys. Is there some information available about this famous keris?

And an interesting older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2011, 11:02 AM

I only know that I was not permitted to buy it because it had already been sold to somebody whom I believe lives in the USA, I do not know who.

I don't know that this keris is so famous, rather I would call a keris that wishes to remain unknown and anonymous.

Rick · 12th November 2011, 12:09 AM

To get back to the pendok, particularly the blewah example in post #13 as shown by Pusaka ... I have one of those, never really tarnishes; white brass I'd guess .

We drift; do we not ?

Pusaka · 11th November 2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

There are also some keris blades made from different non typical alloys. Is there some information available about this famous keris?

And an interesting older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

There are old teachings which state that some keris were made out of a mixture of metals from 7 to 16 metals. I believe the teaching behind such statements have deeper meanings and not to be taken literally. I do however believe that there are some very special keris that indeed are made from an interesting and unusual alloy, specifically the material used to make the pamor.

The link to that yellow colour keris is interesting, the pitting reminds me of the same material as thogchag are made from. Basically a bronze to which ground up meteorite is added resulting in a pitted surface pattern.

David · 11th November 2011, 04:16 PM

Sorry Pusaka, but i can see no real connection between Caster's keris and thogchag objects. I am very doubtful that this keris contains any meteoric ore. I just spent some time looking at a large variety of thogchag objects on the web and can see little in common with the metal used in Caster's keris which is most probably a brass casting. There seems to actually be quite a variance of metal color and surface texture in these objects and they all look quite different from this keris.
Frankly i feel like this thread has travelled all over the place without really drawing much connection to the original question at hand, which is your pendok and why it may not show any signs of tarnishing. Certainly it is an alloy of some sort and metal alloys of various make-up have been used in this area of the world for quite some time. But the tangents here into the sonic qualities of various metals and gamelan gongs and the materials used to create Tibetan thogchags has brought us no closer to an answer about your pendok and has little to do with the subject of this particular forum. I would love to see us focus this thread more to the question at hand.

Pusaka · 11th November 2011, 05:33 PM

Well the answer as to why the pendok I have is not tarnishing must be that the alloy contains a metal which resists oxidation, I assumed it could be gold however it could also be nickel i.e. some type of nickel brass or bronze mix. My only reason for brining up the subject of Tibetan bowls is as Jean also stated they too resist tarnishing (the old ones) and as I have demonstrated this alloy is known at least in Bali.

All the subjects that have been raised are all on the subject of keris and metallurgy. I don’t mind the subject of unusual alloy keris blades being raised as I myself started this thread with similar statements that I had seen such a blade and buckle myself

As for Caster's keris, my belief still stands and yes it is fine to disagree with it.

David · 11th November 2011, 06:01 PM

Surely you can see that the color of these two metals are completely different and i know of no studies that would show that the surface pocking here is due to the inclusion of meteoric ore. The pocks on the thogchags is probably due to it also being a produce of casting. I have looked at dozens of thogchag objects on line that do not have these pock marks, so i am doubtful that they prove anything relevant to our conversation. But yes, it is also fine if you disagree with me.

The subject of metallurgy in this forum is just fine with me when it applies to keris, but when we start getting off on tangents debating whether gold adds to the sonic quality of a gamelan gong or Tibetan singing bowl then as moderator of this forum i am going to make the call of "off-topic" and try to pull the discussion back to the subject at hand. I am personally very doubtful that the sound quality of you pendok is a valid issue here.

11th November 2011, 10:46 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	There are also some keris blades made from different non typical alloys. Is there some information available about this famous keris? And an interesting older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html Attached Images

12th November 2011, 12:09 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Singing Bowls Gongs ETC Aside ... To get back to the pendok, particularly the blewah example in post #13 as shown by Pusaka ... I have one of those, never really tarnishes; white brass I'd guess . We drift; do we not ?

11th November 2011, 05:33 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Well the answer as to why the pendok I have is not tarnishing must be that the alloy contains a metal which resists oxidation, I assumed it could be gold however it could also be nickel i.e. some type of nickel brass or bronze mix. My only reason for brining up the subject of Tibetan bowls is as Jean also stated they too resist tarnishing (the old ones) and as I have demonstrated this alloy is known at least in Bali. All the subjects that have been raised are all on the subject of keris and metallurgy. I don’t mind the subject of unusual alloy keris blades being raised as I myself started this thread with similar statements that I had seen such a blade and buckle myself As for Caster's keris, my belief still stands and yes it is fine to disagree with it. Attached Images

11th November 2011, 02:59 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments. I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing. Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production. Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs. Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

11th November 2011, 10:31 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Here some excerpts from a text, accompanying Ki Mantle Hood's field gamelan recordings (1957-58), released by a very serious label: Over the centuries, expensive bronze metal has been associated with royalty, wealthy patrons and land owners. Rural communities of modest economic means use inferior, less costly metals such as brass and iron for gamelan construction. (...) The gongsmit is a venerated member of Javanese society entrusted with the very important job of gamelan construction as he works with a medium believed to connect the human world with the spirit world. On the neighbouring island of Bali, the Prakempa, a 19th century palm-leaf manuscript about gamelan, outlines the relation between struck bronze and the human spirit. The text describes the sonic affect of struck bronze on a person's inner qualities (sanubari). This is what alters a person's spirit when gamelan music is heard. It is also what motivates people to learn music. According to this Balinese manuscript, a gongsmit or gamelan teacher must be aware that bronze has the power to affect individual's inner qualities (Hood, Made Mantle - Triguna: a Hindu-Balinese Philosophy for Gamelan Gong Geded Music. Unpublished Dissertation, University of Cologne, 2005). Bronze instruments have contributed to the "survival" of inimitable tuning systems or laras in today's increasingly homogenised, predominantly western diatonic urban soundscape. Gamelan forged from good quality bronze has resisted some of this onslaught because of the crystallization process of the bronze metal itself. When Gamelan is newly forged (not cast), gongs and keys are tuned by scraping and cold-hammering their surfaces and undersides until the desired fine-tuning is accomplished. After the entire orchestra is fine-tuned, it is played for about a year, the bronze metal enduring repeated strikes from player's hard wooden or paddled mallets during rehearsal and performance. After approximately a year has passed, a gongsmit will once again scrape and hammer any keys or kettlegongs that need adjustment. Depending on how often the gamelan is played, it will be another four or five years before the instruments require another fine-tuning. With the passing of each year, the mollecules of smelted tin and copper become more dense, compact and the metal begins to crystallize, becoming harder, and thus more stable in holding its tone. By the time a good quality gamelan reaches 30 years of age, its tuning has become quite stable indeed, requiring only small adjustments and occasional key or gong replacements (also Hood (2005:77-79). This does not mean that laras are perfectly preserved, representing tuning systems hundreds of years old in ancient gamelan orchestras. Each generation of tuners that put their smithing tools in action has different reference ponts, personal preference, and an altering sound-scape surrounding them. However, bronze instruments have the added advantage of relative fixity in tuning, unlike string or wind instruments that mutate with contemporary Indonesia's homogenized palette of musical sound. Despite the decline in gamelan tuning diversity in Central Java, as of yet there is no equal or well- tempered tuning system.

11th November 2011, 11:02 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I only know that I was not permitted to buy it because it had already been sold to somebody whom I believe lives in the USA, I do not know who. I don't know that this keris is so famous, rather I would call a keris that wishes to remain unknown and anonymous.

11th November 2011, 04:16 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry Pusaka, but i can see no real connection between Caster's keris and thogchag objects. I am very doubtful that this keris contains any meteoric ore. I just spent some time looking at a large variety of thogchag objects on the web and can see little in common with the metal used in Caster's keris which is most probably a brass casting. There seems to actually be quite a variance of metal color and surface texture in these objects and they all look quite different from this keris. Frankly i feel like this thread has travelled all over the place without really drawing much connection to the original question at hand, which is your pendok and why it may not show any signs of tarnishing. Certainly it is an alloy of some sort and metal alloys of various make-up have been used in this area of the world for quite some time. But the tangents here into the sonic qualities of various metals and gamelan gongs and the materials used to create Tibetan thogchags has brought us no closer to an answer about your pendok and has little to do with the subject of this particular forum. I would love to see us focus this thread more to the question at hand.

11th November 2011, 06:01 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Surely you can see that the color of these two metals are completely different and i know of no studies that would show that the surface pocking here is due to the inclusion of meteoric ore. The pocks on the thogchags is probably due to it also being a produce of casting. I have looked at dozens of thogchag objects on line that do not have these pock marks, so i am doubtful that they prove anything relevant to our conversation. But yes, it is also fine if you disagree with me. The subject of metallurgy in this forum is just fine with me when it applies to keris, but when we start getting off on tangents debating whether gold adds to the sonic quality of a gamelan gong or Tibetan singing bowl then as moderator of this forum i am going to make the call of "off-topic" and try to pull the discussion back to the subject at hand. I am personally very doubtful that the sound quality of you pendok is a valid issue here.