Seven village metal?

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2011, 06:32 PM

Gangsa is bronze.

In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze.

The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic.

If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas.

There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one.

rasjid · 10th November 2011, 07:13 AM

Since last year, in jawa tengah we have a lot of pendok gongso for sale. Most of them is jogja style with silver plate in the middle. The price is quite dear due to gold content (very little) and hard to make, unlike silver easier to work on.

Some people selling Bronze pendok (dirty - and called it gongso). If broze; when cleaned we can see the bronze color but with gongso - you still can see the gold color like Suasa (but the one with very low gold content). As you may know suasa also have different colour depending their gold content.
Just my one cents opinion..

Rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2011, 08:00 AM

Yes, there's no reason why bronze cannot not have gold in it, I think there could well be as many recipes for bronze as there are uses for it.

By definition, any alloy of copper and tin where copper is the principal metal, and zinc is not the principal secondary metal is a bronze.Once zinc becomes the principal secondary metal you have brass.

Suasa can be accurately translated to English as "rose gold", but gangsa is by definition a bronze, albeit, a bronze that contains a small quantity of gold.

Rasjid, I've had a lot of copper pendok through my hands over the years, and some of those were sold to me as gangsa, but I don't think I've ever had a true gangsa pendok in my hands, at least not that I was aware of.

With suasa I understand that the karat value can go as low as 4K or 5K and still be legitimate suasa, I don't know where the karat value of gangsa would kick in.

I wonder if these gold-like materials are pinchbeck?

Pinchbeck is quite difficult to tell apart from gold, without testing, and it was known in Jawa, because I have Javanese watch chain ornaments and fobs made of it.

Jean · 10th November 2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Since last year, in jawa tengah we have a lot of pendok gongso for sale. Most of them is jogja style with silver plate in the middle. The price is quite dear due to gold content (very little) and hard to make, unlike silver easier to work on. Rasjid

Attached are examples of such gongso pendoks with silver slorok.
Best regards

Pusaka · 10th November 2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gangsa is bronze.

In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze.

The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic.

If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas.

There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one.

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

David · 10th November 2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

While i would suspect that gamelan made specifically for royal courts would indeed have superior sound i am somewhat doubtful that that sound is the product of gold content specifically, but rather due to those instruments being made by a superior craftsman. I would imagine that gold is added to the mix in these cases more for it's symbolic importance than an sonic one.

Pusaka · 10th November 2011, 06:08 PM

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2011, 09:18 PM

Pusaka, I have absolutely no idea at all of what this particular bronze was called in early England, I don't even know precisely what period, so I don't even know what language was being used.

Today, in the English language, we refer to a very broad range of copper alloys as bronze, I have no idea how these alloys were referred to in old England.

The sound of a gong is dependent upon the material used as well as the skill of the maker. Brass gongs sound very tinny, they have no resonance. Bronze gongs have full rich sound that you can feel in your gut.

I've seen gongs being made on many occasions, it is an incredibly skilful --- and impressive ---process, particularly with big gongs. It is beyond my understanding how the master of gong forge manages to get the tone and pitch exactly right.

David · 11th November 2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

Pusaka · 11th November 2011, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

David · 11th November 2011, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

Well, as i posted before there is some doubt according to a study by Oxford University whether there is really any gold content at all in these antique Tibetan bowls. Perhaps the gold content in "pancu datu" gamelan is also a myth. Perhaps it's just the idea of gold that is important to people. Makes them feel good just thinking it's there. What we do know is that Mr. Maisey seem to have a similar pendok to yours that does not tarnish, yet when tested it shows absolutely no gold content. And after all, that is what this thread is about, isn't it, whether or not there is some kind of gold content in your pendok that keeps it from tarnishing. I believe that the only way for you to answer that question is to have your pendok tested as Mr. Maisey did.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2011, 02:59 AM

I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments.

I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing.

Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production.

Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs.

Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

9th November 2011, 06:32 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gangsa is bronze. In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze. The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic. If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas. There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th November 2011 at 06:43 PM.

10th November 2011, 07:13 AM	#2
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	gongso Since last year, in jawa tengah we have a lot of pendok gongso for sale. Most of them is jogja style with silver plate in the middle. The price is quite dear due to gold content (very little) and hard to make, unlike silver easier to work on. Some people selling Bronze pendok (dirty - and called it gongso). If broze; when cleaned we can see the bronze color but with gongso - you still can see the gold color like Suasa (but the one with very low gold content). As you may know suasa also have different colour depending their gold content. Just my one cents opinion.. Rasjid

10th November 2011, 08:00 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, there's no reason why bronze cannot not have gold in it, I think there could well be as many recipes for bronze as there are uses for it. By definition, any alloy of copper and tin where copper is the principal metal, and zinc is not the principal secondary metal is a bronze.Once zinc becomes the principal secondary metal you have brass. Suasa can be accurately translated to English as "rose gold", but gangsa is by definition a bronze, albeit, a bronze that contains a small quantity of gold. Rasjid, I've had a lot of copper pendok through my hands over the years, and some of those were sold to me as gangsa, but I don't think I've ever had a true gangsa pendok in my hands, at least not that I was aware of. With suasa I understand that the karat value can go as low as 4K or 5K and still be legitimate suasa, I don't know where the karat value of gangsa would kick in. I wonder if these gold-like materials are pinchbeck? Pinchbeck is quite difficult to tell apart from gold, without testing, and it was known in Jawa, because I have Javanese watch chain ornaments and fobs made of it. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 10th November 2011 at 09:18 AM.

10th November 2011, 06:08 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

10th November 2011, 09:18 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pusaka, I have absolutely no idea at all of what this particular bronze was called in early England, I don't even know precisely what period, so I don't even know what language was being used. Today, in the English language, we refer to a very broad range of copper alloys as bronze, I have no idea how these alloys were referred to in old England. The sound of a gong is dependent upon the material used as well as the skill of the maker. Brass gongs sound very tinny, they have no resonance. Bronze gongs have full rich sound that you can feel in your gut. I've seen gongs being made on many occasions, it is an incredibly skilful --- and impressive ---process, particularly with big gongs. It is beyond my understanding how the master of gong forge manages to get the tone and pitch exactly right.

11th November 2011, 02:59 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments. I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing. Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production. Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs. Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.