16th/17th century chain shot

Matchlock · 8th November 2011, 10:04 PM

Hi Mark and 'Nando,

I liked your contributions - thanks a lot, guys!

Best,
Michael/Michl

M ELEY · 9th November 2011, 10:24 AM

Of course, you are probably right, 'Nando. I was hoping that eBay piece might be legit, because as of now, it is the type of which I speak. My piece is similar, so could be a very old dumbell, but the jury is still out. Most dumbells were marked in some way, either on the individual balls or on the bar. These marks could include patent numbers, maker marks or weight size. Likewise, the old cast iron types, referred to among collectors of such as "circus strongman barbells" typically had..huh hum...huge balls with a very short bar between them just big enough for one hand. Likewise, frequently the bar itself would flair in the middle to allow a better grip.

Barshot had continued use all the way up until the American Civil War and it seems that by this point, the barshot (of the early/mid 19th) might have taken on more of the classic dumbell shape with rounded bar. That being said, this is my "thesis" only and still waiting for some concrete proof in the way of said examples. Anybody???

M ELEY · 9th November 2011, 01:11 PM

Now these two definitely don't seem right to me. The museum piece, supposedly Rev War, is a hand weight. Note how the bar swells in the middle for a grip. The other piece is also obviously a dumbell with no particular amount of age to it. The bar is also too thin...
http://www.revolutionarywarmuseum.co...nnon/main.html

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...nball-74489003

fernando · 9th November 2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...huge balls with a very short bar between them just big enough for one hand ...

According to (translating) Memories for an Artillery Officer in Campaign, the palanqueta (barshot) bar should have 10 1/2 inches. This is a very interesting work on artillery, put up in 1778, and was digitized by the New York Public Library, now available through Google, but its (portuguese) text was not translated.
BOOK
it contains the description of the inumerous types of shot (PAGE 96). Unfortunately it doesn't detail the shot bar cross section, but the term (perno = unthreaded bolt) takes us to consider that the bar is cylindrical.
Browsing the term palanqueta (barshot) one finds that this type of device was vastly used by the Portuguese. I have read about a few coast fortifications stocking these things by the hundred ... but no pictures yet

M ELEY · 9th November 2011, 01:18 PM

Once again, I'm amazed at your resources, Fernando. That description does seem to leave alittle room for a rounded bar. Now that I know the term 'palanqueta', I will try to do some research.

Here's a real one (sorry, Moderators, couldn't download pics from this closed auction). Square barred, but at least it has the full round balls-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bar-Shot-Can...-/300601305058

M ELEY · 9th November 2011, 01:49 PM

Pulling all the stops here, gentlemen. From much research over the years, I did turn up this interesting site. Note the cannonball with the raised area where once a round bar might have been before it was cut down? (It's the 15th item down). That's what the site says and mentions Keeler Tavern with the same type of cannonball embedded in it (funny, the pic doen't seem to support it, but anyway, take a look...
www.minutemantreasures.com/5139/11401.html
http://keelertavernmuseum.org/keeler...ome/battle.php

fernando · 9th November 2011, 03:53 PM

Did you know tat barshot was also called "angels" ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cannon_bullets.png
http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html

Here's a picture of various "multi use" shot, this time from George C. Neumann's Illustrated Encyclopedia (Page 12). Some of them have round connections.

.

M ELEY · 10th November 2011, 12:56 AM

AWESOME!!! Finally, a nod if not absolute proof that these things came in all shapes and sizes. I have several of Neumann'sa books, but none with this illustration. Thank you, my friend!! I'm really attached to these types of specialized naval shot. Yes, I had heard them called 'angels', while the round bar with the flaired ends have another name that slips my mind at the present. Here's one recovered from a military site-
http://images.ourontario.ca/niagarah...1/image/176968

One of this type was on the Pass Cavallo shipwreck in TX and thus, some believe this type of shot was popular with Spahish ships. This opinion was seconded on another site concerning another wreck.

9th November 2011, 10:24 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Of course, you are probably right, 'Nando. I was hoping that eBay piece might be legit, because as of now, it is the type of which I speak. My piece is similar, so could be a very old dumbell, but the jury is still out. Most dumbells were marked in some way, either on the individual balls or on the bar. These marks could include patent numbers, maker marks or weight size. Likewise, the old cast iron types, referred to among collectors of such as "circus strongman barbells" typically had..huh hum...huge balls with a very short bar between them just big enough for one hand. Likewise, frequently the bar itself would flair in the middle to allow a better grip. Barshot had continued use all the way up until the American Civil War and it seems that by this point, the barshot (of the early/mid 19th) might have taken on more of the classic dumbell shape with rounded bar. That being said, this is my "thesis" only and still waiting for some concrete proof in the way of said examples. Anybody??? Last edited by M ELEY; 9th November 2011 at 01:04 PM.

9th November 2011, 03:53 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Did you know tat barshot was also called "angels" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cannon_bullets.png http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html Here's a picture of various "multi use" shot, this time from George C. Neumann's Illustrated Encyclopedia (Page 12). Some of them have round connections. . Attached Images

8th November 2011, 10:04 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark and 'Nando, I liked your contributions - thanks a lot, guys! Best, Michael/Michl

9th November 2011, 01:11 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Now these two definitely don't seem right to me. The museum piece, supposedly Rev War, is a hand weight. Note how the bar swells in the middle for a grip. The other piece is also obviously a dumbell with no particular amount of age to it. The bar is also too thin... http://www.revolutionarywarmuseum.co...nnon/main.html http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...nball-74489003

9th November 2011, 01:18 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Once again, I'm amazed at your resources, Fernando. That description does seem to leave alittle room for a rounded bar. Now that I know the term 'palanqueta', I will try to do some research. Here's a real one (sorry, Moderators, couldn't download pics from this closed auction). Square barred, but at least it has the full round balls- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bar-Shot-Can...-/300601305058

9th November 2011, 01:49 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Pulling all the stops here, gentlemen. From much research over the years, I did turn up this interesting site. Note the cannonball with the raised area where once a round bar might have been before it was cut down? (It's the 15th item down). That's what the site says and mentions Keeler Tavern with the same type of cannonball embedded in it (funny, the pic doen't seem to support it, but anyway, take a look... www.minutemantreasures.com/5139/11401.html http://keelertavernmuseum.org/keeler...ome/battle.php

10th November 2011, 12:56 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	AWESOME!!! Finally, a nod if not absolute proof that these things came in all shapes and sizes. I have several of Neumann'sa books, but none with this illustration. Thank you, my friend!! I'm really attached to these types of specialized naval shot. Yes, I had heard them called 'angels', while the round bar with the flaired ends have another name that slips my mind at the present. Here's one recovered from a military site- http://images.ourontario.ca/niagarah...1/image/176968 One of this type was on the Pass Cavallo shipwreck in TX and thus, some believe this type of shot was popular with Spahish ships. This opinion was seconded on another site concerning another wreck.