Jamdhar Katari?

Lew · 2nd November 2011, 02:36 AM

I had one of these a few years back. They are status symbols similar to Yemeni jambiyas.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2011, 06:46 AM

Abdullatif, while this is clearly a modern example, it is of a unique and distinct form which is known as a 'katara' if memory serves, and of a fascinating tribal people known as the Kalash. Though the history of these people is complex, they are related to the Kafirs of Kafiristan (now Nuristan) adjacent to and part of Afghanistan. The Kalash however fled Nuristan upon the invasion of Afghan Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, I think in the 1880s.
The Kalash are of the Chitral regions of Pakistan near Khyber province and are a polytheistic and uniquely traditional tribal people with a facinating history. As the Kafirs they are represented in Kiplings "Man Who Would be King", and I can recall speaking with one of the tribal elders upon research I was doing on this tribe some years ago. Apparantly one of thier rituals involves dancing with a particular form of long handled axe as one of the icons and I was working with someone in Germany seeking one of these.

I was able to see several examples of these of some age, which look just like this, and surprisingly found that somehow quite a number of these had been turning up in Nepal.

The Afghan crest is of course seen on yours represented with the Mosque of Mazir i Sharif.

All the best,
Jim

AJ1356 · 2nd November 2011, 01:32 PM

The Mosque in the Afghan crest is pretty much a made believe mosque, I don't believe it was never to resemble a certain mosque in Afghanistan. The crest on this knife resembles the crest Afghanistan had towards the late 80's ( end of communist era ). The text reads Saakht e Abdul Waadid ساخت عبدالواحد which means made by Abdul Waahid. Afghanistan was not known as Afghanisan in 1132 (Solar, Lunar or Julian) no matter how one would want to twist the history, that is just a number not a year.

A.alnakkas · 2nd November 2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The Mosque in the Afghan crest is pretty much a made believe mosque, I don't believe it was never to resemble a certain mosque in Afghanistan. The crest on this knife resembles the crest Afghanistan had towards the late 80's ( end of communist era ). The text reads Saakht e Abdul Waadid ساخت عبدالواحد which means made by Abdul Waahid. Afghanistan was not known as Afghanisan in 1132 (Solar, Lunar or Julian) no matter how one would want to twist the history, that is just a number not a year.

Thats exactly what I thought. The knife is way newer then the date so could it be just a number that the maker added? or probably to give it more value.

AJ1356 · 2nd November 2011, 04:04 PM

I seriousely doubt it is a number the maker gave, somewhat unusual. My money would be on trying to get more money out of it, however with the newer seal it does not make much sense. But then again the maker probably did not think that far ahead.

Correction on the earlier post, the so called mosque in the seal in not a mosque at all, I remembered it at the gym. It is actually a Mehraab and Munbar, let's call it the alter area of a mosque, for those who are not familiar with inside of the mosques.

Lew · 2nd November 2011, 07:39 PM

Here is the link to the one I posted some years back.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Jamdhar+Katari

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2011, 07:17 PM

While this dagger is clearly a quite modern piece, as always I still look to learn on the history of the weapon it is intended to replicate and what significance there might be to the markings or motif. Although my fascination with this pursuit is not often particularly widely shared, I follow this course and write for those who might be.

As I have mentioned, the type of dagger is from the Kafir heritage regions now Nuristan which was invaded by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan in the 19th century. The Kafirs who refused to subjugate to the Amir and accept Islam fled into the Chitral regions, and those remaining in then Kafiristan became essentially 'Afghan' or under that suzerainty.

The poorly executed scribed markings represent the emblem of Afghanistan in modern times, but the image of the mosque derives from the reign of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901). We have discovered that the markings found on a number of swords attributed to the period of his rule are very much the same as those found on coinage issued by his reign, in particular the mosque depicted, which indeed in most cases most resembles a mehraab.

In my opinion, the reason the famed mosque at Mazir i Sharif seems at least temporally depicted on the coinage and in the stamps on blades presumed to be of the royal armoury located there is because this was in effect the provincial capital of Afghanistan . Also, the importance of this mosque in the Faith as the Holy Shrine is significantly placed, and seems to suggest this being the most likely represented. It is situated far in the north nearly at the Uzbekistan border, and was unaffected during any of the Anglo-Afghan wars, and near the ancient city of Balkh. It was the refuge for Emir Sher Ali and significant in the Barakzai Dynasty of which Emir Abdur Rahman Khan was a key ruler.
Abdur Rahman Khan was the first to create what was to became the actual state of Afghanistan, and negotiated with the British which resulted in protection and subsidies (Treaty of Gandamak). It was during these times that the adoption of heraldic style devices seem to have come from the British association. As far as I have found the first coins bearing the stylized mosque/mehraab occur in 1892. Subsequent issues continued with more detail added to resemble minarets and military arms and flags, all had a wreath surround and issues by his son Habibullah continued.

The earliest swords I have seen with the deep stamp carrying this same image seem to concur with the dates of these coins issuance.

Regarding the number/date inscribed 1132, may represent 1132 AH (1720CE). The important Islamic scholar and spiritual guide Alawi al Haddad (1634-1132AH) died that year. He was a poet and author of devotional songs who was from Hadhramawt, but of course his teachings were widely known and important in Islamic scholarship.

Interestingly during his reign Abdur Rahman Khan's flag was a black flag without any type of devices or writing. His son added the symbolic emblem seen on the coinage , which later became the emblem of Afghanistan.

Regardless of the nature of this modern dagger, these are the historic elements associated with it as far as I can find.

DaveA · 14th November 2011, 10:11 PM

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

Stan S. · 14th November 2011, 10:25 PM

Beautiful!

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

Thank you for posting this Dave!!! I will add this to my notes which have been greatly augmented by Lew's posts as well !!!!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th November 2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

Salaams Dave... Can you direct me to the history you speak of having been sent by Lew as I have looked everywhere but just cannot track it?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

14th November 2011, 10:11 PM	#8
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	My Jamdhar Katari for comparison I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew. - Dave A. Attached Images

2nd November 2011, 02:36 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I had one of these a few years back. They are status symbols similar to Yemeni jambiyas.

2nd November 2011, 06:46 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,368	Abdullatif, while this is clearly a modern example, it is of a unique and distinct form which is known as a 'katara' if memory serves, and of a fascinating tribal people known as the Kalash. Though the history of these people is complex, they are related to the Kafirs of Kafiristan (now Nuristan) adjacent to and part of Afghanistan. The Kalash however fled Nuristan upon the invasion of Afghan Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, I think in the 1880s. The Kalash are of the Chitral regions of Pakistan near Khyber province and are a polytheistic and uniquely traditional tribal people with a facinating history. As the Kafirs they are represented in Kiplings "Man Who Would be King", and I can recall speaking with one of the tribal elders upon research I was doing on this tribe some years ago. Apparantly one of thier rituals involves dancing with a particular form of long handled axe as one of the icons and I was working with someone in Germany seeking one of these. I was able to see several examples of these of some age, which look just like this, and surprisingly found that somehow quite a number of these had been turning up in Nepal. The Afghan crest is of course seen on yours represented with the Mosque of Mazir i Sharif. All the best, Jim

2nd November 2011, 01:32 PM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	The Mosque in the Afghan crest is pretty much a made believe mosque, I don't believe it was never to resemble a certain mosque in Afghanistan. The crest on this knife resembles the crest Afghanistan had towards the late 80's ( end of communist era ). The text reads Saakht e Abdul Waadid ساخت عبدالواحد which means made by Abdul Waahid. Afghanistan was not known as Afghanisan in 1132 (Solar, Lunar or Julian) no matter how one would want to twist the history, that is just a number not a year.

2nd November 2011, 04:04 PM	#5
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	I seriousely doubt it is a number the maker gave, somewhat unusual. My money would be on trying to get more money out of it, however with the newer seal it does not make much sense. But then again the maker probably did not think that far ahead. Correction on the earlier post, the so called mosque in the seal in not a mosque at all, I remembered it at the gym. It is actually a Mehraab and Munbar, let's call it the alter area of a mosque, for those who are not familiar with inside of the mosques.

2nd November 2011, 07:39 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is the link to the one I posted some years back. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Jamdhar+Katari

3rd November 2011, 07:17 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,368	While this dagger is clearly a quite modern piece, as always I still look to learn on the history of the weapon it is intended to replicate and what significance there might be to the markings or motif. Although my fascination with this pursuit is not often particularly widely shared, I follow this course and write for those who might be. As I have mentioned, the type of dagger is from the Kafir heritage regions now Nuristan which was invaded by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan in the 19th century. The Kafirs who refused to subjugate to the Amir and accept Islam fled into the Chitral regions, and those remaining in then Kafiristan became essentially 'Afghan' or under that suzerainty. The poorly executed scribed markings represent the emblem of Afghanistan in modern times, but the image of the mosque derives from the reign of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901). We have discovered that the markings found on a number of swords attributed to the period of his rule are very much the same as those found on coinage issued by his reign, in particular the mosque depicted, which indeed in most cases most resembles a mehraab. In my opinion, the reason the famed mosque at Mazir i Sharif seems at least temporally depicted on the coinage and in the stamps on blades presumed to be of the royal armoury located there is because this was in effect the provincial capital of Afghanistan . Also, the importance of this mosque in the Faith as the Holy Shrine is significantly placed, and seems to suggest this being the most likely represented. It is situated far in the north nearly at the Uzbekistan border, and was unaffected during any of the Anglo-Afghan wars, and near the ancient city of Balkh. It was the refuge for Emir Sher Ali and significant in the Barakzai Dynasty of which Emir Abdur Rahman Khan was a key ruler. Abdur Rahman Khan was the first to create what was to became the actual state of Afghanistan, and negotiated with the British which resulted in protection and subsidies (Treaty of Gandamak). It was during these times that the adoption of heraldic style devices seem to have come from the British association. As far as I have found the first coins bearing the stylized mosque/mehraab occur in 1892. Subsequent issues continued with more detail added to resemble minarets and military arms and flags, all had a wreath surround and issues by his son Habibullah continued. The earliest swords I have seen with the deep stamp carrying this same image seem to concur with the dates of these coins issuance. Regarding the number/date inscribed 1132, may represent 1132 AH (1720CE). The important Islamic scholar and spiritual guide Alawi al Haddad (1634-1132AH) died that year. He was a poet and author of devotional songs who was from Hadhramawt, but of course his teachings were widely known and important in Islamic scholarship. Interestingly during his reign Abdur Rahman Khan's flag was a black flag without any type of devices or writing. His son added the symbolic emblem seen on the coinage , which later became the emblem of Afghanistan. Regardless of the nature of this modern dagger, these are the historic elements associated with it as far as I can find.

14th November 2011, 10:25 PM	#9
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Beautiful!