Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I wanted to just comment on the overall status thus far as I understand, and by my perceptions of the development of these notably different kattara forms.

It does seem possible that the 'old' form with downturned quillons etc. established now as indiginous to the interior Oman, is evolved from early Abbasid swords of c.8th c. however without extant and provenanced examples we cannot be certain of the exact form chronologically. We can presume the form in accord with contemporary types however and estimate the approximate style and its traditional form being maintained.

The more familiar form of Omani kattara with cylindrical hilt and straight, double edged blade is it seems the focus of the discussion and whether it evolved around the arrival of European trade blades in the 17th century.

Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia", p.18) states that the early form of Omani sword is frequently found with German blades of the 17th century suggesting that as a terminus a quo, however clearly that assumption seems in question at this point. It does show that German blades were present in this time apparantly in Oman. On p.16 referring to James Fraser at Ormuz in 1821 it is noted that the Omani garrison, resembling 'Arabs of Muscat' had broadswords and target, with many made at Yemen while greater part were from ports in the Meditteranean, many with Solingen and Andrea Ferara blades.
p.20, he notes that in Hormuz, the Arabs of Muscat shared with them very considerable trade with India where many Arabs had settled.
There were trade connections between Mysore and Tipu Sultan to Muscat from 1786 to his death in 1799 and it is noted that "...since its emergence from 16th century onwards Muscat had established commercial contacts indirectly with Western Europe via India". ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar: Roots of British Domination", Mohammed Reda Bhader, 1992, p.35).

It does seem that most emphasis on the presence of European blades recorded is from mid to latter 18th century into the early 19th in Arabia by Europeans, so it would be difficult to presume that the familiar guardless kattara had appeared in the 17th century. It does seem that the early form did exist with the German trade blades of the 17th century, however whether simply old blades, mounted later or Omani copies is unclear.

While there seems to be sufficient evidence for the import of European blades through India, Egypt and other ports on Muscat maritime trade routes, as well as via caravans in the interior through Jidda and other routes....it seems unlikely that the 'new' kattara evolved 'around' these blades. It does seem clear as noted in various reading in Elgood that there were indeed skilled and numerous sword makers in Arabia, certainly including regions being discussed. It seems that unfortunate observations by Richard Burton in the 19th c. may be the source for the impression that few or no swords were produced in Arabia.

I believe that much as in North Africa, more volume in imported material including blades resulted in the perception that most blades were imported, while of course a good number may have been produced locally. What I do find puzzling is why these well established makers in Oman or Muscat would imitate the European markings if notably proud of thier own wares. Much of the increase in volume of German blades to these colonial regions at the end of the 18th century was due to the upset of local makers for example in England of the German imports. In many cases the Solingen makers began to produce more for other markets to offset this deterence in their markets.
It is believed they did produce various blade types for varied clientele and markets, many of broadsword type to the Sahara and Sudan.

It seems that the 'old' or battle sword is a form which may exist 'in form' in degree traditionally from early types atavistically related to the Abbasid swords, and which may have used Persian and European blades in addition to Omani produced examples. These have remained in use primarily in the Nizwa regions and Omans interior and concurrent with the Muscat type guardless swords. I also wonder how much contact with the Ibadis in North Africa might have contributed to arrival of German blades in Oman.

The highly flexible blades of the Muscat or 'new' kattara, while exact period of development of the hilt style is unclear, are notably important in the Funun, or sword dance. This dynamic is noted by Fraser in 1821 (Elgood, p.16) where he notes the blades are made to 'sing' by jerk of the wrist while being held upright...apparantly before battle. This characteristic of blades is well known into medieval times and in India and other instances, but the details of ceremony related in other places is not clear here. It does seem that the dancing and ceremonial event is much related to martial skill and the use of the weapon in combat.

Salaams Jim,

As expected your letter is, as always, full of excellent, well read research.

My first general observation is in your reference which I quote;

"These have remained in use primarily in the Nizwa regions and Omans interior and concurrent with the Muscat type guardless swords. I also wonder how much contact with the Ibadis in North Africa might have contributed to arrival of German blades in Oman"

The Short and long Kattara have one thing in common ~ They were and are all over Oman; Coast, Interior, mountains and desert. After 751 AD Oman was at peace with itself for nearly 400 years and the old Kattara sword went where the religion went. i.e. All over Oman. When eventually the new weapon superceded it, that too went countrywide spilling over into tribal regions on the periphery like the Gulf Coast Fiefdoms now The UAE etc and Omani possessions like Zanzibar/ parts of the East African Coast, the Gwadur region in Baluchistan and enclaves traded with and settled by Omanis in India.

When Oman was at war with itself Interior (capital Nizwa) versus Coast (Capital Muscat) the same weapons were used against each other though as yet the new kattara had not surfaced. There was a great war lasting 100 years (like the War Of The Roses) and a few other miniature outbreaks. I wanted to make the point in case it was imagined that Short Omani Battle Swords were only in the Interior (Nizwa armoury) and that the Coast used some other system..

The second point about North Africa Ibathi and sword transition... I have no idea. I suspect not, however, hopefully that may be proven/disproven in due course..

Regarding The Old Kattara.

My earlier letter tying the Abbasid and the Omani Short Battle sword and the date 751 AD commensurate with the weapon being an Iconic and heraldic insignia sword of Ibathi Islam... parallel in the same way as the "Sword of The Prophet" concept. The date being the start of Ibathiism and the appearance of its First Immam in Oman. (Julanda). (and proven through the Funoon, Razha etc) Another of my renditions lays out the 11 close similarities between the Abbasid and the Ibathi sword which we call variously The Old Kattara, The Old Omani Battle Sword. Turned down Quillons et al.

I have to admit that I have never seen anywhere in a Museum or in any collection or locally in the souks an early weapon of this style with a confirmed German or foreign blade. I have never seen its blade with any sort of European blade mark. I have a suspicion having seen a lot of these blades that there is an interloper ... a blade with less rigidity, not so thick, lighter... which may be the European blade which may have appeared late on this weapon.. Perhaps 17th C but I have yet to discover that as fact. Perhaps that is where the confusion about 17th C lies?

It is certainly on my agenda to investigate that problem.

Regarding the New Kattara.
I know of no mediaeval Indian or other spatulate tip, flexible bladed, long hilt weapon around the region that would have led to its adoption into Oman and covered by your quote viz;

"This dynamic is noted by Fraser in 1821 (Elgood, p.16) where he notes the blades are made to 'sing' by jerk of the wrist while being held upright...apparantly before battle. This characteristic of blades is well known into medieval times and in India and other instances, but the details of ceremony related in other places is not clear here". Unquote.

What is important however is the date 1821 which places the weapon firmly in Oman at that time. That is also the only vague reference to what is, in fact, The Funoon and reference to the singing blade is clearly the Razha celebratory technique. In so far as any investigation before or since, this Forum is the first to uncover the wealth of information revealed by its analysis.

Your note on the Hormuz is also an interesting quote;

"On p.16 referring to James Fraser at Ormuz in 1821 it is noted that the Omani garrison, resembling 'Arabs of Muscat' had broadswords and target, with many made at Yemen while greater part were from ports in the Meditteranean, many with Solingen and Andrea Ferara blades" .

Was he referring to the old or new swords? I assume the new ones which were used to sing...by buzzing the blades. Both have a broad blade per se and both use what he calls a target which I assume is the Terrs buckler shield. He refers to Yemen which we know was a general region, in fact, encompassing the horn of Africa where it can be seen on many old maps and sea charts actually marked as "The Yemen" ! It could also have included Salalah. It is an important quote and could date the New Kattara before, not after 1821. It could be an indicator of Salalah or South Arabian provenance, however I cannot understand the quote;

""while greater part were from ports in the Meditteranean, many with Solingen and Andrea Ferara blades" . Unquote.

I have never seen a Mediterranean or Solingen or Andrea Ferara New Omani Kattara. What do they look like ? What was the blade stamp? Is there a museum example?

It seems to me that blades from the 17th C European Trade Blade presumeably from the Industrial Revolution cannot have been responsible for Omans replacement sword stock because the dates of the European Industrial period are much later. Whilst 1821 is a lot later and more believable why would they accept foreign blades and with the requirement to fully update the Funoon etc? At least we need to look at possible cottage industry production locally and in the absence of proper evidence including blade stamps etc I think that is a worthy cause.

I have some loosely formatted ideas and heresay information regarding Salalah which will take time to check out. I know that the tribesmen there (Jebali) practically all carry the New Omani Kattara at National Day Celebrations and are fervent performers of The Sword Dance with thousands at a time taking part in rolling parade dance pasts for the Ruler.

Meanwhile we roll forward and hopefully a conclusion is close. Of course Nizwa is staring us in the face as a possible centre of production however I am well aware of that and have a few interesting leads in that regard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It seems to me that blades from the 17th C European Trade Blade presumeably from the Industrial Revolution cannot have been responsible for Omans replacement sword stock because the dates of the European Industrial period are much later. Whilst 1821 is a lot later and more believable why would they accept foreign blades and with the requirement to fully update the Funoon etc? At least we need to look at possible cottage industry production locally and in the absence of proper evidence including blade stamps etc I think that is a worthy cause.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

While the Industrial Revolution may not have begun until the latter half of the 18th century, industrialization of the (sword manufacturing) process had (as I understand it) been occurring in Solingen since the 16th century. The use of (water driven) mechanical hammers allowed for a rate of production significantly greater than traditional hammer forging methods had allowed. There was indeed a significant industry (and thus industrial presence) in place in Solingen in the 17th century producing large quantities of swords.

Jim, thank you (yet again!) for taking the time to share your knowledge. The picture you draw of the extensive (and intertwined) networks of trade is demonstrative of how pervasive trade - and the influence it brings - has always been...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Salaams Ibrahiim,

While the Industrial Revolution may not have begun until the latter half of the 18th century, industrialization of the (sword manufacturing) process had (as I understand it) been occurring in Solingen since the 16th century. The use of (water driven) mechanical hammers allowed for a rate of production significantly greater than traditional hammer forging methods had allowed. There was indeed a significant industry (and thus industrial presence) in place in Solingen in the 17th century producing large quantities of swords.

Jim, thank you (yet again!) for taking the time to share your knowledge. The picture you draw of the extensive (and intertwined) networks of trade is demonstrative of how pervasive trade - and the influence it brings - has always been...

Exactly - by the 16th century water powered hammers and grinders were in use in Solingen. The town was ideally situated with access to local iron ore deposits, vast forests for the necessary charcoal production and the water power necessary to allow for quick forging and manufacture.

A water powered hammer at the time was roughly 5 times faster than hand forging a blade. Typically blades were rough forged by the mechanical hammers and then hand finished using water powered grinders.

This was exponentially faster than the techniques used even in most other areas of Europe at the time. As a result Solingen items were produced at a highly uniform quality for a very competitive price.

These three natural resources of ore, wood and water are not commonly found together in the Sahel or the Mid East. As such steel and the resulting products, were by necessity more expensive in the local economies because the effort and resource consumption relative to local supply (particularly wood) was much higher than the relative consumption in Solingen.

So to put it quite simply, semi industrialized blade production was already happening in Solingen by the 16th century.

Ibrahiim,

I personally have not studied kattara in sufficient detail to show you a list of European blades that I've closely researched, however a quick Google search soon turns up some leads you can follow up on. Keep in mind the running wolf originated in Passau but was widely used in Solingen as well.

http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy279.html A correspondent to Therion mentioned dated Portuguese blades in his collection.

Here a sale record for a sword with a running wolf - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...-kattara-sword

Here another with a basic running wolf - http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

Here is yet another - http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Here is another sales record for one - http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

Finally I stumbled on this old style kattara you might find interesting due to the Arabic inscription (obviously a local blade I just figured I'd post it here before I forgot the link!) - http://www.trocadero.com/101antiques...7179store.html

Even if one or two of these blades are locally produced, why are they applying a wolf stamp stamp copied from Solingen/Passau? The evidence for trade blades is simply unavoidable and is backed up by historical accounts like Fraser.

Just as a final note, and I don't want to get into a lot of detail here since it's not my area and I find your research quite interesting. But in terms of presenting dates and research regarding the old form kattara... You have a compelling and very well thought out theory for how this style of sword entered Oman, but at the same time your heavy use of the 751 date gives an impression that you believe absolutely nothing did change stylistically in over 1000 years (as the sword remains in use until the 18th century) - I'm not sure if that is how you mean to present it or not? I'm simply urging caution here as your enthusiasm for this date I think can be misleading to readers. Certainly the old style swords that are typically encountered I think we would all agree are not 8th century artifacts. Still I think you've done an excellent job putting together a probable timeline for the old style sword so please take this as a constructive comment, I'm just the type of person who is very cautious when it comes to presenting dating theories over such a long period without physical evidence to account for the time in between.

All the best and keep up your research,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Exactly - by the 16th century water powered hammers and grinders were in use in Solingen. The town was ideally situated with access to local iron ore deposits, vast forests for the necessary charcoal production and the water power necessary to allow for quick forging and manufacture.

A water powered hammer at the time was roughly 5 times faster than hand forging a blade. Typically blades were rough forged by the mechanical hammers and then hand finished using water powered grinders.

This was exponentially faster than the techniques used even in most other areas of Europe at the time. As a result Solingen items were produced at a highly uniform quality for a very competitive price.

These three natural resources of ore, wood and water are not commonly found together in the Sahel or the Mid East. As such steel and the resulting products, were by necessity more expensive in the local economies because the effort and resource consumption relative to local supply (particularly wood) was much higher than the relative consumption in Solingen.

So to put it quite simply, semi industrialized blade production was already happening in Solingen by the 16th century.

Ibrahiim,

I personally have not studied kattara in sufficient detail to show you a list of European blades that I've closely researched, however a quick Google search soon turns up some leads you can follow up on. Keep in mind the running wolf originated in Passau but was widely used in Solingen as well.

http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy279.html A correspondent to Therion mentioned dated Portuguese blades in his collection.

Here a sale record for a sword with a running wolf - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...-kattara-sword

Here another with a basic running wolf - http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

Here is yet another - http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Here is another sales record for one - http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

Finally I stumbled on this old style kattara you might find interesting due to the Arabic inscription (obviously a local blade I just figured I'd post it here before I forgot the link!) - http://www.trocadero.com/101antiques...7179store.html

Even if one or two of these blades are locally produced, why are they applying a wolf stamp stamp copied from Solingen/Passau? The evidence for trade blades is simply unavoidable and is backed up by historical accounts like Fraser.

Just as a final note, and I don't want to get into a lot of detail here since it's not my area and I find your research quite interesting. But in terms of presenting dates and research regarding the old form kattara... You have a compelling and very well thought out theory for how this style of sword entered Oman, but at the same time your heavy use of the 751 date gives an impression that you believe absolutely nothing did change stylistically in over 1000 years (as the sword remains in use until the 18th century) - I'm not sure if that is how you mean to present it or not? I'm simply urging caution here as your enthusiasm for this date I think can be misleading to readers. Certainly the old style swords that are typically encountered I think we would all agree are not 8th century artifacts. Still I think you've done an excellent job putting together a probable timeline for the old style sword so please take this as a constructive comment, I'm just the type of person who is very cautious when it comes to presenting dating theories over such a long period without physical evidence to account for the time in between.

All the best and keep up your research,

Iain

Salaams Iain,
Superb letter, excellent research and very well put! Last point first; the 751 AD date for the Omani Short Original Battlesword, The Old Kattara. I promote that date as the first appearance of the weapon but by no means the date of all "originals" which must have been manufactured in a bracket of time rather than all at once. The date therefor is of "style". 751AD was the date of the first Ibathi Immam "ibn Julanda", thereby it is chosen as the likely introductory date of the Iconic, indeed Heraldic, Insignia sword against the Abbasid. (this is the sword from the Funoon; The Razha or sword dance and mimic combat formulated at the beginning of the Ibathi structure in 751 A.D) Questions arise such as what was the time bracket and when therefor was the last blade made? (that is the 64,000 dollar question !)

Regarding the Germany related questions; Mass production, Solingen, Running Wolf Stamp etc...I accept the German water powered hammer machinery was turning out vast numbers of blades... I should have researched that..Well spotted ! The running wolf stamp I have seen on a New Kattara in a Muscat Museum which they say is 19th C and fake. I have been digging through my notes and about 15 years ago met up with a collector from the UAE who at the time was only beginning to collect swords and he said that Old Kattara had two blades. His collection is now one of the worlds biggest ! I dismissed it at the time but it now transpires that the old weapon was given a new blade, early, perhaps 17th century? and that it was thinner, more flexible, and lighter than the original style. I handled a couple of Old Kattara in the Muscat Souk with flimsy looking blades and didnt give it a second thought, or considered them rusted and worn out... when in fact they may have been the imported blades we are trying to identify.

Could it be that the imported blade and old Kattara was the sword seen by Frazer in Hormuz in about 1821... ? It may have been the vibrating singing blade ? Is it possible that this imported thinner "transitional blade" on the Old Kattara then gave rise to the New Long Kattara form ?

In your references there is a so called 1000 AD Old Omani Kattara with a fine Arabic stamp. Their date is wrong by a few centuries.. since this is the sword from the Funoon formulated at the beginning of the Ibathi structure is 751 A.D. The other detail is ok and I like the fact they observe that a sword like this lasted centuries being passed down from father to son and as in Islamic and Arabian style they tended to "retain what worked" for many centuries..

Thank you very much for your excellent input !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain,
Superb letter, excellent research and very well put! Last point first; the 751 AD date for the Omani Short Original Battlesword, The Old Kattara. I promote that date as the first appearance of the weapon but by no means the date of all "originals" which must have been manufactured in a bracket of time rather than all at once. The date therefor is of "style". 751AD was the date of the first Ibathi Immam "ibn Julanda", thereby it is chosen as the likely introductory date of the Iconic, indeed Heraldic, Insignia sword against the Abbasid. (this is the sword from the Funoon; The Razha or sword dance and mimic combat formulated at the beginning of the Ibathi structure in 751 A.D) Questions arise such as what was the time bracket and when therefor was the last blade made? (that is the 64,000 dollar question !)

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for clarifying the 751AD date. If I can continue to provide a little input, I'm still not convinced we can know the exact style that was transmitted - elements perhaps like the quillions but it still seems a bit of a stretch to say that this stayed completely unchanged? I have no idea, but logically I just see a gap here between the 751AD date and when we actually have examples from. I would imagine some stylistic changes might occur over such a long period? Might be interesting to start cataloging all the old style kattara we can find to see if any patterns emerge?

Regarding the Germany related questions; Mass production, Solingen, Running Wolf Stamp etc...I accept the German water powered hammer machinery was turning out vast numbers of blades... I should have researched that..Well spotted ! The running wolf stamp I have seen on a New Kattara in a Muscat Museum which they say is 19th C and fake. I have been digging through my notes and about 15 years ago met up with a collector from the UAE who at the time was only beginning to collect swords and he said that Old Kattara had two blades. His collection is now one of the worlds biggest ! I dismissed it at the time but it now transpires that the old weapon was given a new blade, early, perhaps 17th century? and that it was thinner, more flexible, and lighter than the original style. I handled a couple of Old Kattara in the Muscat Souk with flimsy looking blades and didnt give it a second thought, or considered them rusted and worn out... when in fact they may have been the imported blades we are trying to identify.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm not an expert in Solingen manufacturing history but I've learned a few things following trade blades for takouba and kaskara.

I have not seen any blade that looked imported on an old style kattara, but I guess some cross over could have occurred. Would be interesting to see one. If you've seen some in the Souk, even in bad condition it would be interesting to get photographs if you can on some trip in the future.

Could it be that the imported blade and old Kattara was the sword seen by Frazer in Hormuz in about 1821... ? It may have been the vibrating singing blade ? Is it possible that this imported thinner "transitional blade" on the Old Kattara then gave rise to the New Long Kattara form ?

That is the big question of course and what I've always wondered about the two types. The difference in hilts. It seems the question of interior versus coast doesn't provide any answers - nor does influence from any nearby countries.

The blade transition I think makes more sense. If the European imports offered some kind of improvement in quality over locally made old kattara style blades then I am sure it would not take long for locals to copy the form and the markings. This is exactly what happened in N. Africa with kaskara and takouba. This would also explain the museum example you mentioned with the faked wolf stamp. This seems like something of a usual pattern where Solingen blades went, copied locally, stamps added to give a sense of authenticity. The form and the stamps become associated with quality. This is of course just an idea based on my observations from takouba blades and may or may not be applicable to kattara.

The hilts of course remain a problem, the only other thing I can think about, and I am probably completely wrong, is that as the sword dance developed over time the quillions and balance of the old sword were possibly modified into the new hilt style to be better suited to the dance? So that the new sword is then designed more for dance? Could this also partly mirror the increase in usage of firearms as the sword became less of a primary weapon as muskets took over? Just some thoughts but that's the only thing I can think of.

In your references there is a so called 1000 AD Old Omani Kattara with a fine Arabic stamp. Their date is wrong by a few centuries.. since this is the sword from the Funoon formulated at the beginning of the Ibathi structure is 751 A.D. The other detail is ok and I like the fact they observe that a sword like this lasted centuries being passed down from father to son and as in Islamic and Arabian style they tended to "retain what worked" for many centuries..

Yes I thought you might be interested in what was written on that page. I have no idea what sources they used. Where you able to read the stamp?

Thank you very much for your excellent input !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

My pleasure. I look forward to your further research, you have a great advantage over many collectors in that you get to live in the area where your collection comes from! I would give anything to be able to do some field research in Nigeria!

Cheers,

Iain

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades. Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).
Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).



The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades. Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).
Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).



The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim...

Thank you for another inspiring letter. I need more time to revise please?? There is huge input by you here and I should take a day or two to get hold of the bulk of it.

I think between us i.e. "The Forum" we may, in due course, be able to underwrite a general statement encompassing all of the latest material and perhaps put a firm line under the Old Omani Kattara. I suspect, however, that the story of the New Kattara could run on a while. I am delighted that we have just crashed through 4000 hits with a healthy developing number of excellent letters of very informative Forum research.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balaooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim and may I reply in blue under each paragraph...?

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.
Agreed Jim and as you have said before we are all learning !

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades.

I dont agree with these blades being Muscat. Nizwa had considerable say in what went on especially in respect of sword style. If anything sword style was the same all over Oman not factionalised. ( I am investigating the Salalah situation where every man has a New style Kattara even today.. Its use obviously prolific in an area largely divorced from Muscat at that time and thought more of as Yemen even. The Jebali tribes, in fact, straddle the border even today.


Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

They may correspond but they aren't the same. The running wolf where marked are regarded as fake therefor are unreliable having been copied onto blades where and by whom? I have no evidence of cross and Orb on Omani New Kattara. One of the problems in finding the sword trail is that there are no identical swords like this either side of the Red Sea or in Africa. This means that batches and shiploads of New Style Kattara went direct to Oman only. Where they crop up eg in Zanzibar/Pemba and the nearby African Coast is because they were taken there by Omanis from Oman.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

Yes it is always interesting talking to people first hand though often the response is only regarding what they can remember or what their father said...and therefor often very unreliable though interesting. I agree with all the possibilities outlined.
With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

Do you mean this thread at #1? Agreed. The blade is too thick and would not, I suspect, bend through 90 degrees easily. It is not an New style Omani Kattara. The blade marks appear fake also. The hilt seems Omani and the scabbard could be. That is not to say that an Omani person did not carry it.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).

The bold letters are mine on your quote The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) which is a good solid research note I didnt have the benefit of. Thank you for that. I believe that may account for the second blade of The Omani Old Kattara... not the NEW KATTARA... however it is a key date quotation along with your earlier 1821 Frazer quote in Hormuz. Both these quotes may come back to assist us in our conclusion soon to either/all ;
1. Old Omani Kattara with original style blade.
2. Old Omani Kattara with replacement blade.
3. New Omani Kattara with long flexible spatulate tip blade.


Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).

Though it remains a puzzle as to why no Indian blades were adopted by Oman. India had scores of good, well designed blades but none were adopted. Trade was very tightly controlled by the British from Bombay see Oman and French Relations in the Indian Ocean by Doctor Sheikh Sultan Al Qasimi covering the 3 centuries up to 1900...I find it hard to believe that trade with Muscat and the outside world (Europe) really flourished because of the reluctance of Oman to accept embassadors into Muscat until the 1900s. Local / African/ Indian/ Persian/ Gulf/ trade did however boom !


The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

I can find no evidence of New Omani Kattara spilling out in peripheral regions of the Red Sea on route to Oman. That is also the case regarding the second blade of the Old Omani Kattara. That could mean that they came direct via the Cape circumventing Africa and the Red Sea or elsewhere or that they were made locally or all of those.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

Interesting detail Jim...Thank you ! I didnt know that ! If it comes up in a quiz I'm on it !

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Agreed that the Topkapi has various swords of Abbasid provenance users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/topkapiarms.html
I noted 11 similarities to the Old Omani Kattara giving it a provisional style date parallel to Ibn Julanda the first Ibadi Immam in 751 AD. (though it is quite possibly perhaps 50 to 100 years earlier!) The first Immam date, however, seems logical. What I suspect throws people is my introduction of the Funoon from that time illustrated by the sword dance with the buckler shield. The Razha. I dont think everyone realises that this was not a written tradition, rather, it was enacted as if on stage rather like pantomime and at several pageants every year without fail in the form of a parade or dance past without shields and mimic fighting contests with sword and shield. It was sacrasanct and absolute in that it heralded both Eids and was used at weddings and public gatherings. It still is. This living breathing enterprise of folklore and fact, history and tradition echos life through the ages in Oman therefor it quite rightly shows the changed dance pattern with the NEW OMANI KATTARA and the same old Terrs shield though as yet I have no exact date. The second thin blade for the Old Kattara possibly imported in the 17TH C may be a transitional blade leading to The NEW OMANI KATTARA.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim ...Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for clarifying the 751AD date. If I can continue to provide a little input, I'm still not convinced we can know the exact style that was transmitted - elements perhaps like the quillions but it still seems a bit of a stretch to say that this stayed completely unchanged? I have no idea, but logically I just see a gap here between the 751AD date and when we actually have examples from. I would imagine some stylistic changes might occur over such a long period? Might be interesting to start cataloging all the old style kattara we can find to see if any patterns emerge?




Thanks for the kind words, I'm not an expert in Solingen manufacturing history but I've learned a few things following trade blades for takouba and kaskara.

I have not seen any blade that looked imported on an old style kattara, but I guess some cross over could have occurred. Would be interesting to see one. If you've seen some in the Souk, even in bad condition it would be interesting to get photographs if you can on some trip in the future.



That is the big question of course and what I've always wondered about the two types. The difference in hilts. It seems the question of interior versus coast doesn't provide any answers - nor does influence from any nearby countries.

The blade transition I think makes more sense. If the European imports offered some kind of improvement in quality over locally made old kattara style blades then I am sure it would not take long for locals to copy the form and the markings. This is exactly what happened in N. Africa with kaskara and takouba. This would also explain the museum example you mentioned with the faked wolf stamp. This seems like something of a usual pattern where Solingen blades went, copied locally, stamps added to give a sense of authenticity. The form and the stamps become associated with quality. This is of course just an idea based on my observations from takouba blades and may or may not be applicable to kattara.

The hilts of course remain a problem, the only other thing I can think about, and I am probably completely wrong, is that as the sword dance developed over time the quillions and balance of the old sword were possibly modified into the new hilt style to be better suited to the dance? So that the new sword is then designed more for dance? Could this also partly mirror the increase in usage of firearms as the sword became less of a primary weapon as muskets took over? Just some thoughts but that's the only thing I can think of.



Yes I thought you might be interested in what was written on that page. I have no idea what sources they used. Where you able to read the stamp?




My pleasure. I look forward to your further research, you have a great advantage over many collectors in that you get to live in the area where your collection comes from! I would give anything to be able to do some field research in Nigeria!

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain,

Great that you have taken such time to remark on the issue and your input is most appreciated.. As always in detective work I am concious of the danger is in arriving at a perfectly sound conclusion using logic and common sense without the painstaking research needed to back it up. The danger in "situating the appreciation" is always present instead of the other way around! The only way to nail this Old Kattara 1. With an original Style Blade and 2. With a blade of circa 17th C is to line up an example of each. (Im attempting to achieve that). I think that will happen quite soon ~ I needed to see Ariels example but having had a good look at it on the auction site I think it is an original form and, actually, could have an inscription at the throat..I will ask Ariel.

The blade with a clear, round Omani/Arabian stamp is fascinating. Im hopeless at precise deciphering and will ask Al Nakkas to look at that. The question there must be ~ Is it a manufacture stamp or a later ownership stamp? That weapon carries the usual information on this sword added verbattum by various houses. I think much of it is roughly correct but much is missing or clouded over. The Funoon and the Razha are not mentioned.

Your point about firearms eventually taking over from swords is probably right. Like in most Islamic weapons however I think tried and tested well accepted designs went on and on. In 1955 at the famous confrontation in Buraimi the tribesmen turned up with abu futtilla, daggers and swords as well as Martini Henry and Enfields.

~ I think we are looking at an ancient sword which at about the time of the Yaruba dynasty 1624-1744 which in perhaps the 17th or 18th C took on a thinner, flexible, less wing shaped blade from Europe (Germany) as a transitional blade which then morphed into the new Kattara in perhaps the 18th 19thC that entered folklore on top of an already well established tradition and as an extension of it. ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Dear Forum ~ the example posted by Iain is what I would describe as near perfect of the Omani Old Kattara and is best seen at http://www.trocadero.com/101antique...47179store.html

Unusually it carries an Omani stamp in Arabic possibly with the name of the owner though perhaps Al Nakkas can better decipher?

There is no dot/ dots on the blade. That could be for several reasons not least that not all blades had dots... Look at the point and notice how degraded it is. It degrades in the centre.. at what I call the "Dot Position" I have seen blades with a single dot at the point about an inch from the tip and dots at the throat. (See this thread for an example by Michael Blalock #61) . Regarding the degraded point I believe this is because the dot near the point is a natural weak spot and as the point wears it breaks or is worn and degraded at the very place of the dot evidenced by a "soft W shaped tip" ...

That is also the place on the Abbasid sword( at the TIP) where the dot is placed...

and is one of the 11 copies, influences or similarities taken on board the Old Omani Kattara "Style" in CIRCA 751 A.D.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Salaams Ibrahiim,

While the Industrial Revolution may not have begun until the latter half of the 18th century, industrialization of the (sword manufacturing) process had (as I understand it) been occurring in Solingen since the 16th century. The use of (water driven) mechanical hammers allowed for a rate of production significantly greater than traditional hammer forging methods had allowed. There was indeed a significant industry (and thus industrial presence) in place in Solingen in the 17th century producing large quantities of swords.

Jim, thank you (yet again!) for taking the time to share your knowledge. The picture you draw of the extensive (and intertwined) networks of trade is demonstrative of how pervasive trade - and the influence it brings - has always been...

Salaams, You are absolutely correct and my apologies for taking my eye off the ball regarding German production. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.