like your opinion on this Palembang keris

[sirek]

Thanks for sharing, I welcome your comments.

I am glad that it’s a original, there are indeed many similarities especially the
greneng style.
In my opinion an original Palembang-keris is not so common,and is not often offered for sale in our country.

Originally Posted by David

I agree that this is a nice old Palembang kris, but i do not think that this hilt is durga...

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

One more for easy viewing without scrolling

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by sirek

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

I think it was again Martin Kerner who used first time "Veiled-Durga" for this type of hilt in his book "Keris-Griffe Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen" (look page 139) and others take this unproofed. It is said on other place that this hilts are common in a region neighbouring to Palembang, Bengkulu, what seems verisimilar since all examples I have seen coming with a typical Palembang sheath.
Here a second example with this hilt from my collection.

[David]

Originally Posted by sirek

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

It seems to me that this is a figurative hilt which lost it's face to Islam restrictions on depicting human form so i don't think the face is vieled as Durga is sometimes depicted. I can see no resemblance to Durga whatsoever (Durga is a female goddess btw, so not a "he") and can't image how Kerner supports his assertion. I don't think it is in the best interest of the keris world to use such unsupported names as it only perpetuates inaccuracies for future collectors. Frankly, i prefer the term "batman" hilt simply because we can't mistakingly believe that the hilt truly represents Batman, while calling it a "Durga" hilt implies that was it's original intention.

[Sajen]

Here a citation from Kris Disk Jensen: Martin Kerner thinks it represents the veiled death-goddess Durga (Balu Mekabun - Topeng type)4. That is most probable, as certain Panjang/Bahari-krisses from Northern Sumatra, which has been used for executions, have a similar hilt.5.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here a citation from Kris Disk Jensen: Martin Kerner thinks it represents the veiled death-goddess Durga (Balu Mekabun - Topeng type)4. That is most probable, as certain Panjang/Bahari-krisses from Northern Sumatra, which has been used for executions, have a similar hilt.5.

A quote from Jensen is all well and good, but i still don't see any reasonable support for his position...

[A. G. Maisey]

Mr. Kerner and Mr. Jensen have both now been promoted to a higher existence.

Both were refined and gentle men, giving true meaning to the term "gentleman".

My feeling is that the ideas of both should be permitted to rest.

I disagree strongly with this "vieled Durga" terminology, and I have somewhat of a problem with "balu mekabun" also ---"balu" is Old Javanese for "widow", but "mekabun"? I do not know the word, nor "kabun", and I cannot find it in Old Javanese, Modern Javanese, Balinese, Kawi, nor Indonesian. I could be utterly wrong, but to me it looks very much like a corrupted spelling, and the name as a whole a combination of words put together from different languages.

Look at the word "mekabun". "Me" can be a prefix, and if the second part of the word was "kebun" we would have prefix "me" + "garden". But even then we would not have a recognisable word, because "mekebun" is grammatically incorrect.As a "garden" related word, it simply does not exist.

My feeling is that the term "balu mekabun" was the invention of some western person who half understood some Indonesian language. Now, my reasoning could be totally incorrect:- "balu mekabun" might be a language or dialect that I do not know; it might be Palembang dialect. Can anybody identify this term as coming from any Indonesian language?

I feel that both of these terms should be left to lay without further debate, but that a new and supportable term be coined for this hilt form, pending the time when some interested party actually goes into the field and obtains the generally used local name for this form --- and that may not be so easy at the present time.

I think of this form as "Palembang symbolic figural", or just "Palembang figural".

David seems to like "Batman".

Perhaps somebody else might like to propose a name that will not generate disagreement when it is used?

[BluErf]

Did someone call for batman?

[PenangsangII]

i would suspect that the term ''balu mekabun'' derives from ''balu berkabung''. It is a Malay term for ''mourning widow''. Philosophically, the hilt of a keris in the olden days is often exposed for everyone to see. Its a warning to those who dare try to create problems with the wearer of the keris hilted with this design / motif. Something like, ''widow maker'' signage for everone to see. ''if you try to be funny with me, think about your wife at home who will definitely mourn your death''. Unfortunately, i am not able to provide any reference for this.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David seems to like "Batman".

Perhaps somebody else might like to propose a name that will not generate disagreement when it is used?

What is about: "Person-who-lost-his-face-hilt" ?