Chinese sword: Real or Fake?

Mark · 1st August 2005, 07:27 PM

Don't get me wrong -- I think it is a deliberate fake. I just got tired of writing "fake" so often.

ariel · 1st August 2005, 07:50 PM

Thanks, everyone!!!
The minute one sees shipment origin, dozens of red lights start flashing. But, as we discussed before, the sophistication of Chinese fakers is improving exponentially.
This is the reason why I decided to post this sword on the Forum: I thought that for a blatant fake, this one was unusually well-made and could serve as a test case for the Forumites. I am glad that my gut feeling was supported by the majority, but I am very disturbed by the higher than usual level of professionalism on the part of the "Dark Side".....
In a couple of years, nothing will prevent them from churning out Kilijes, Shamshirs or Shashkas in whatever steel pattern the market values the most.

Rivkin · 1st August 2005, 08:09 PM

Well, I've already seen chinese tsubas of rather exceptional quality, very good copies of chinese ancient bronze, crude folding does not seem to be something outside of their league.

However I have to disagree with many things said: I don't think that fakers "learn" or "educate" themselves on how to make good fakes. Faking in China is a mass-production, therefore number one symptom of being fake - it looks like 100 other swords on ebay at the moment (not this one). Second things that are big no for serious collectos: swastikas on scabbards (btw there were gendais that were given to nazi raider and boat commanders who visited Japan, with swastikas on scabbards, but they are more than rare), crude "horimono" etchings of dragons, crude characters on the scabbard, etched wild "damascus", red rust all around the place, but they work for your average shmo (or should I say shmoizaki, ninja in training ?). Obviously they will continue to make their fakes for the "big market" (btw how many of "us"-collectors are out there ?).

Is this one fake - most likely it is. It is sad, as I for example can not see myself collecting anything chinese ever - the market is so flooded with stupid fakers, I simply don't want to touch it.

However I still think that someone who is capable to make a really classy shashka for example does not need to make fakes - the price of a modern made quality shashka is well above 1500$, with no "faking", with demand being much greater than supply. I've regularly seen 10,000$ being paid for fine modern damascus swords, while similar antique item would barely fetch 3000$ max on ebay. Just like with japanese swords, where something new of gendai quality will cost you 4000-6000$ vs. 1200$ for quality mumei gendai.

So I think as soon as they start making something really good, they will realize that "antique" is not the most profitable market. They will find a marketing department in Dagestan or Colorado

, and start making repros instead of fakes.

RSWORD · 1st August 2005, 10:03 PM

I am going to step out on a limb here and say that I do not think this piece is a fake. I do not think it is terribly old but may have been made traditionally in Tibet and found its way to this particular seller. I have noticed a number of this sellers swords with remounted Tibetan blades and the blades look OK. The blade on this example looks OK and the mountings do not look bad. They look to be stylistically correct just utilizing materials that one would find more recently. Although not of the level of workmanship one finds in earlier Tibetan arms it lacks the total disregard to most levels of quality and more importantly historical style to be an out and out Chinese Tibetan sword knock off. This is a piece I would like to see in person to make a better assessment and given that, I would not be confident in purchasing online. The red on the scabbard is probably some type of leather and not out of place. I have a Tibetan sword in my collection that led a nomadic life and has 3 or 4 different scabbard coverings from "working" life repairs. So, my guess is sword made in Tibet, probably in the last 50 years, which through the various bazaars or trade networks found it's way to this particular sellers shop.

fearn · 1st August 2005, 11:01 PM

Hi,

I tend to agree with RSword. If it's genuiune, I suspect that parts of the scabbard have been replaced.

It comes close to passing the "profit margin" test. Basically, was it worth a faker's time to make a sword of this quality and sell it at this price? My answer is "maybe." Labor costs would have to be pretty cheap for a talented smith, if it was hand made....

Does it pass the mass production test? Dunno. If 50 others show up, then no. If it's the only one, then why did someone waste the time making the one?

Oh well, in the fabled age of Nanotechnology (yet to come, of course

), they'll be making molecule-perfect replicas of our favorite heirlooms, and this board will be out of the "is it fake" debate.

F

dennee · 1st August 2005, 11:27 PM

The blade looks pretty darn good. If they are faking those now, then it is going to be pretty much impossible to buy Tibetan swords online.

I agree that the brass ring looks suspicious.

The red leather throat piece is recent, but they were often lost or destroyed.

The decoration on the pommel may be authentic, but it is indistinct in the photos.

And I'll agree that some of the corrosion may be a little suspicious in its character (and Tibet is fortunately pretty dry).

Corals are common on Tibetan swords, of course, but the lack of them, particularly on commoner swords is almost getting to be a mark of authenticity as, while repros and fantasy swords are gaudy, Tibetans often remove turquoise and coral from swords they are selling in order to reuse on rings, headdresses, gaus, etc.

And I am not sure if the scabbard is covered with leather or velvet or ?

But the forms of the scabbard, guard, pommel, and the grip section all look pretty good. This sword definitely deserves closer inspection. I guess we'll all
keep an eye out. If there are fakes of this quality coming out, then Tibet collectors have a problem.

pbleed · 2nd August 2005, 01:23 AM

I have to agree with Dennee. I think this is a real "Tibetan" sword albeit one that may have been flashed up a bit recently. My opinion is based on the old rust pitting and generally look of the blade. As a Japanese collector, I have acquired a number of "Tibetan" swords since they look so elemental and "primitive." This sword looks a lot more like the old ones I've seen than the new stuff that is being produced.
Don't think I'll bet on it, but if I did, I'd bet "good".
Is it good or bad that the world seems to be getting more complicated?
PBleed

ariel · 3rd August 2005, 09:37 AM

I am absolutely delighted: this argument is exactly what I wanted to provoke.
With all the knowledge, sophistication and collector's savvy, we cannot reach an agreement anymore whether a particular Chinese item sold by a known "replica" dealer ( I am being facetious!) is a fake or not....

2nd August 2005, 01:23 AM	#7
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	Chinese sword: Real or Fake? I have to agree with Dennee. I think this is a real "Tibetan" sword albeit one that may have been flashed up a bit recently. My opinion is based on the old rust pitting and generally look of the blade. As a Japanese collector, I have acquired a number of "Tibetan" swords since they look so elemental and "primitive." This sword looks a lot more like the old ones I've seen than the new stuff that is being produced. Don't think I'll bet on it, but if I did, I'd bet "good". Is it good or bad that the world seems to be getting more complicated? PBleed

1st August 2005, 07:27 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Don't get me wrong -- I think it is a deliberate fake. I just got tired of writing "fake" so often.

1st August 2005, 07:50 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks, everyone!!! The minute one sees shipment origin, dozens of red lights start flashing. But, as we discussed before, the sophistication of Chinese fakers is improving exponentially. This is the reason why I decided to post this sword on the Forum: I thought that for a blatant fake, this one was unusually well-made and could serve as a test case for the Forumites. I am glad that my gut feeling was supported by the majority, but I am very disturbed by the higher than usual level of professionalism on the part of the "Dark Side"..... In a couple of years, nothing will prevent them from churning out Kilijes, Shamshirs or Shashkas in whatever steel pattern the market values the most.

1st August 2005, 08:09 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I've already seen chinese tsubas of rather exceptional quality, very good copies of chinese ancient bronze, crude folding does not seem to be something outside of their league. However I have to disagree with many things said: I don't think that fakers "learn" or "educate" themselves on how to make good fakes. Faking in China is a mass-production, therefore number one symptom of being fake - it looks like 100 other swords on ebay at the moment (not this one). Second things that are big no for serious collectos: swastikas on scabbards (btw there were gendais that were given to nazi raider and boat commanders who visited Japan, with swastikas on scabbards, but they are more than rare), crude "horimono" etchings of dragons, crude characters on the scabbard, etched wild "damascus", red rust all around the place, but they work for your average shmo (or should I say shmoizaki, ninja in training ?). Obviously they will continue to make their fakes for the "big market" (btw how many of "us"-collectors are out there ?). Is this one fake - most likely it is. It is sad, as I for example can not see myself collecting anything chinese ever - the market is so flooded with stupid fakers, I simply don't want to touch it. However I still think that someone who is capable to make a really classy shashka for example does not need to make fakes - the price of a modern made quality shashka is well above 1500$, with no "faking", with demand being much greater than supply. I've regularly seen 10,000$ being paid for fine modern damascus swords, while similar antique item would barely fetch 3000$ max on ebay. Just like with japanese swords, where something new of gendai quality will cost you 4000-6000$ vs. 1200$ for quality mumei gendai. So I think as soon as they start making something really good, they will realize that "antique" is not the most profitable market. They will find a marketing department in Dagestan or Colorado , and start making repros instead of fakes.

1st August 2005, 10:03 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I am going to step out on a limb here and say that I do not think this piece is a fake. I do not think it is terribly old but may have been made traditionally in Tibet and found its way to this particular seller. I have noticed a number of this sellers swords with remounted Tibetan blades and the blades look OK. The blade on this example looks OK and the mountings do not look bad. They look to be stylistically correct just utilizing materials that one would find more recently. Although not of the level of workmanship one finds in earlier Tibetan arms it lacks the total disregard to most levels of quality and more importantly historical style to be an out and out Chinese Tibetan sword knock off. This is a piece I would like to see in person to make a better assessment and given that, I would not be confident in purchasing online. The red on the scabbard is probably some type of leather and not out of place. I have a Tibetan sword in my collection that led a nomadic life and has 3 or 4 different scabbard coverings from "working" life repairs. So, my guess is sword made in Tibet, probably in the last 50 years, which through the various bazaars or trade networks found it's way to this particular sellers shop.

1st August 2005, 11:01 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi, I tend to agree with RSword. If it's genuiune, I suspect that parts of the scabbard have been replaced. It comes close to passing the "profit margin" test. Basically, was it worth a faker's time to make a sword of this quality and sell it at this price? My answer is "maybe." Labor costs would have to be pretty cheap for a talented smith, if it was hand made.... Does it pass the mass production test? Dunno. If 50 others show up, then no. If it's the only one, then why did someone waste the time making the one? Oh well, in the fabled age of Nanotechnology (yet to come, of course ), they'll be making molecule-perfect replicas of our favorite heirlooms, and this board will be out of the "is it fake" debate. F

1st August 2005, 11:27 PM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The blade looks pretty darn good. If they are faking those now, then it is going to be pretty much impossible to buy Tibetan swords online. I agree that the brass ring looks suspicious. The red leather throat piece is recent, but they were often lost or destroyed. The decoration on the pommel may be authentic, but it is indistinct in the photos. And I'll agree that some of the corrosion may be a little suspicious in its character (and Tibet is fortunately pretty dry). Corals are common on Tibetan swords, of course, but the lack of them, particularly on commoner swords is almost getting to be a mark of authenticity as, while repros and fantasy swords are gaudy, Tibetans often remove turquoise and coral from swords they are selling in order to reuse on rings, headdresses, gaus, etc. And I am not sure if the scabbard is covered with leather or velvet or ? But the forms of the scabbard, guard, pommel, and the grip section all look pretty good. This sword definitely deserves closer inspection. I guess we'll all keep an eye out. If there are fakes of this quality coming out, then Tibet collectors have a problem.

3rd August 2005, 09:37 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am absolutely delighted: this argument is exactly what I wanted to provoke. With all the knowledge, sophistication and collector's savvy, we cannot reach an agreement anymore whether a particular Chinese item sold by a known "replica" dealer ( I am being facetious!) is a fake or not....