Kattara for comments

[A.alnakkas]

Salam,

This sword I have for a while.. The blade looks like those used in Kattaras but the hilt is yemeni.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam,

This sword I have for a while.. The blade looks like those used in Kattaras but the hilt is yemeni.

Salaams, Nice sword. I would say a hybrid? Certainly a Yemeni Nimcha Hilt variant. The blade notwithstanding the blade marks which are not Omani (If blade marks were applied at the manufacture point then this may be an indicator of provenance) is of a wing shaped cross section whereas Kattara Omani are flat. I imagine this blade to be quite rigid. This looks like a one off... its a nice South Arabian sword all the same. Mabrook ! Ibrahiim.

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks Ibrahim, Allah yebarek feek.

The blade is not like the Kattaras I've seen, its rigid and thick at the ricasso. the blade is very sharp at the tip. The only similarity to Kattara blades is the spatula shaped tip?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams !

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks Ibrahim, Allah yebarek feek.

The blade is not like the Kattaras I've seen, its rigid and thick at the ricasso. the blade is very sharp at the tip. The only similarity to Kattara blades is the spatula shaped tip?

Salaams A.alnakkas, Nice sword it is indeed ! I suspect the tip is reworked to round it off in more or less spatulate form but I reckon it was pointed originally. What do you think?
This in no detracts from the sword and the blade is very thick perhaps 3 times or 4 times thicker at the riccasso than the Omani style Kattara which I am about to try to show are not a European blades but made in Ras Al Khaimah (The Head of the Tents) I believe the rounded cross section or as I call them wing shaped much less flexible blade form is a Saudia variant quite different in feel and handling to the flat cross sectioned very, very flexible Omani Kattara which easily bends through 90 degrees and springs back to shape immediately.
Regards Ibrahiim.
(I am in China this week)

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, Nice sword. I would say a hybrid? Certainly a Yemeni Nimcha Hilt variant. The blade notwithstanding the blade marks which are not Omani (If blade marks were applied at the manufacture point then this may be an indicator of provenance) is of a wing shaped cross section whereas Kattara Omani are flat. I imagine this blade to be quite rigid. This looks like a one off... its a nice South Arabian sword all the same. Mabrook ! Ibrahiim.

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim for returning this thread to topic, and again it is a fascinating topic which truly needs to be discussed to learn more on the development of swords in these regions.
I need to review notes to readdress some points, for example that the adoption of European blades, and in many cases examples from India and the Caucusus occurred in the 17th century onwards is primarily..availability. It is all very much commercially rather than culturally oriented, and much as in the Sudan. The sword until relatively modern times remained the weapon of nobles and individuals of means and standing. As trade strengthened with exposure to wider scope of materials, particularly with colonial incursions, the inclusion of sword blades also increased. In the Saharan routes, Kano was oe key point of dispersal....in the Middle East, Damascus was a key hub, in India there were a number of these many on the Malabar Coast. In Arabia, it was of course Oman, and properly, Muscat. This was a point of contact where merchants traded and dispersed wares into East African and Red Sea trade, and of course the movement of these materials entered land routes.

As we have discussed, the interior of Oman, strictly Ibadi, carried on trade independantly via camel routes through regions not necessarily within the spheres of maritime trade, but still it would be impossible to consider that goods did not diffuse via route confluences at many points. The forms of 'traditional' kattara with downward quillons and the distinct mosque domed pommel would seem to have been maintained strictly within fundamental standards and not influenced nor refurbished with European blades in most cases I am aware of. I think that the ancestry of this form can likely be traced to early Abbasid forms, and remained in use traditionally into fairly modern times, contemporary with the coastal kattaras.

The coastal (Muscat) cylindrical hilted versions of kattara again, as discussed, seem to be largely mounted with trade blades, and the adoption of this distinct form seems to be keenly associated to the increased import of trade broadsword blades.
BTW, Stu, I believe the stamp on the blade you show in one from the Caucasian regions, and these are seen it seems usually on qama and other weapons produced in Transcaucasian regions. I believe it is known in Arabia as the number of blades brought into many regions were via Ottoman auspices and of course via Syria. I have seen numbers of Syrian hilt sabres with Hungarian blades misidentified as East European sabres with notably East European inscriptions.
The sword shown by A. Ainakkas is one of relative commanality and indeed of Yemeni type with it seems most of them being latter 19th into early 20th but often with refurbished older blades. The 'karabela' style hilt with subtle trilobate pommel is characteristic on a number of Yemeni, particularly Hadhramaut forms.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples.

Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula.

Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture.

Regards,
Teodor

[A.alnakkas]

The use of European trade blades ranged from al-Sham to Yemen. Denial of it is refuted by material evidence and "natural" evidence (lack of steel manufacturers ment expensive local swords. Buying european blades was the cheapest option)

Followers of Imam Abdulwahab for example didnt have any problem using Lion stamped blades or bu-askiri (clauberg) stamped blades. I highly doubt they had the luxury to have a problem :-)

[kahnjar1]

Now we are getting back to some sort of sensibility at last. Thanks Jim, TVV, and Lofty. Of course there was wide spread use of trade blades throughout the colonial territories, including Oman. I will now show the full blade with the mark, which by the way came from Ibrahiim himself, and was described by him as a curved Kattara. So that rather blows the theory that the Omanis did not use trade blades, but made their own.

[ariel]

Can we simplify it?
Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword?

Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning.

From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders.

The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps.
No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The use of European trade blades ranged from al-Sham to Yemen. Denial of it is refuted by material evidence and "natural" evidence (lack of steel manufacturers ment expensive local swords. Buying european blades was the cheapest option)

Followers of Imam Abdulwahab for example didnt have any problem using Lion stamped blades or bu-askiri (clauberg) stamped blades. I highly doubt they had the luxury to have a problem :-)

Salaams, I agree that European trade blades are all over the peninsular..and Africa, The Red Sea etc In the form of Sayf styles..and straight swords in Africa especially Ethiopia etc etc. ~ Where I disagree is on the straight Omani Kattara, long, flexible weapons which I have recently identified as from Ras al Khaimah. The Shihuh have been in blade making for generations though I thought they were only knife makers.

Most, indeed all, of the RAK Blade marks are in fact Arabian or derived from close by(Crown from Victorian India). Stars and Moon are Arabian, Lion is Arabian and has "God is Great" on the underbelly. I would appreciate you having a look at that lion (at #98 photo 2.) as I thought I was imagining the wording in the Lions belly !
Your input is much appreciated.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples.

Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula.

Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams Teodor. Please understand that I only seek the facts whether they turn out as based upon a firm religious construction such as the Funun, or some other solid factual historical reference must be viewed in that light; Just the Facts.
I have discovered a possible and very strong likely source of weapons possibly stretching back down the ages centred on Ras Al Khaimah. Could it be that the Shihuh sword makers emigrated from Persia with this sword making expertise and produced in possibly the 8th C the old Omani Kattara with turned down quillons etc... Geographically it is a fit. It was all one country then. The camel train line links RAK with Nizwa.
Is it possible they continued to turn out swords and are solely responsible for the new Kattara which superceded the old Omani sword in the 17th /18th C.? Not withstanding some few hybrid or similar blades so tiny in number as to be perhaps not relevant to the real origin...RAK.
However what transpires is an eye opener; RAK makes Omani swords today. They use a variety of maker stamps some original, some copied. They use Lion, Crown, Star and Islamic verse God is Great etc and I have the pictures and have met the swordmakers. It should not be a surprise to learn that father to son sword making has gone on uninterupted there for generations and given the opportunity I will follow the line as far back as possible ~ People may be surprised by the outcome but I have a feeling it will shock some...after all I am about to attempt to blow the theory specifically regarding Omani Kattara European trade blades, out of the water.(Omani Kattara straight blades made in RAK not imported !)

You will see a photo run of RAK blade stamps shortly

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

Salaams,
Your point is respected in view of the cross section of the blade shown is wing shaped. For it to be Omani Kattara it needs to be tested at 90 degrees bend and released. It may be a hybrid. I have seen Saudi swords with this shaped blade. Could it be similar to the A Alnakkas blade? The second sword shown carries RAK Marks. I will continue on that sword at your next photo.

Regards Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[laEspadaAncha]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

For my own (and possibly others') clarity, when you discuss "wing-shaped" swords or blades, are you speaking of a blade with a lenticular cross section, i.e., a double-edged, "flattened" oval?

Also, can you please elucidate in detail the blade profile of the Omani swords you believe to be of indigenous form and which you describe as being "flat" by comparison (with regards to presence of lack of distal taper, thickness, etc.)?

As a "math guy," I guess I am surprised I don't see more quantitative analysis of measurable parameters in the study of arms & armor, such as blade length, width, profile, as well as easily measures yes/no parameters (e.g., taper, distal taper, etc.). In fact, the only time I can recall seeing tables of data was in regards to a New Zealand study of Polynesian (or maybe pan-Oceanic) war clubs (I'm guessing there are probably more out there, but just not in my nascent library). It's the least subjective of expression of form, and I would think a proper statistical analysis of the respective blade forms would be the least interpretive way to test - or support - your theory.

Cheers,

Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Salaams Ibrahiim,

For my own (and possibly others') clarity, when you discuss "wing-shaped" swords or blades, are you speaking of a blade with a lenticular cross section, i.e., a double-edged, "flattened" oval?

Also, can you please elucidate in detail the blade profile of the Omani swords you believe to be of indigenous form and which you describe as being "flat" by comparison (with regards to presence of lack of distal taper, thickness, etc.)?

As a "math guy," I guess I am surprised I don't see more quantitative analysis of measurable parameters in the study of arms & armor, such as blade length, width, profile, as well as easily measures yes/no parameters (e.g., taper, distal taper, etc.). In fact, the only time I can recall seeing tables of data was in regards to a New Zealand study of Polynesian (or maybe pan-Oceanic) war clubs (I'm guessing there are probably more out there, but just not in my nascent library). It's the least subjective of expression of form, and I would think a proper statistical analysis of the respective blade forms would be the least interpretive way to test - or support - your theory.

Cheers,

Chris

Salaams Chris,

Wrapped inside your well placed call for mathematical analysis is an assumption that we are able to pinpoint origin of species ...however we cannot. I would dearly love to stick the calipers on an original new so called 17th C (New Omani Kattara). In itself this is also not going to help if there is no standard length or weight because of the cottage industry style of production I think we are looking at. Every Omani Kattara I see and there are hundreds already viewed are all different in some small way. What is the same, or similar, is the flexibility. Stiff blades do not qualify. How do I put that into mathematical terms ? The bend is through about 90 degrees and the blade when subjected to this test springs immediately back to shape. Any blade that does not bend and return to shape after this simple test is not an Oman (New) Kattara.

The peculiar point being that its predecessor, with the same name, was a short weapon capable of slash cut and stab is a stiff unflexible blade originating in the 8th C. and is superceded by the new blade form in the 17th C (Supposedly)

What is under examination is ~ Is this new sword a European Trade Blade? If not what are its origins ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[laEspadaAncha]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The measurements themselves, e.g., length, width, cross section, et al, would serve as the mathematical terms for such a study. A proper statistical analysis of the distribution of these measurements might allow for someone to cross-correlate the measurements with a likely place of origin/production, and in turn, evaluate the probable origin of a specific example by comparing it to this distribution. While you may not be able to pinpoint the origin of an entire type or form, theoretically you might be able to formulate a theory of origin of a respective type by comparing the measurements of individual examples with a known provenance/origin to the (statistical) distribution of the group...

Cheers,

Chris

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

OK this raises the question of the swords you advertise as Omani. Assuming your description is correct, then these ALL would have flexible blades??

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

OK this raises the question of the swords you advertise as Omani. Assuming your description is correct, then these ALL would have flexible blades??

Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum. However, I would have thought that information being freshly researched would be gratefully received so that we are not in the dark regarding a swords provenance.

In trying to assess a blade as Omani to date there have been no mistakes in the final analysis. I will agree that getting there is a bumpy ride but well worth the effort. So far this thread has cracked the origin of the Old Omani Kattara with a forum accepted date of 751 AD. I believe we have a duty to examine thoroughly the new version, no?

Geographical influence ~(The UAE, RAK and the entire region up almost as far as Bahrain and including Gwadur in Baluchistan and Zanzibar were Omani for many centuries..The Shihuh tribe today, in fact, straddle Oman and the UAE. A Kattara made in a Shehe workshop is therefor Omani 100% by tradition . I think you misunderstand the origin of species not only of the swords but of the tribes also... They all dance the Funun whether in the UAE or Oman because not so long ago this was all one region.

~ Granted it was a series of splintered Fiefdoms but socially it was very much one entity. Having said that there is a rich diversity. Religiously take for example RAK.. Ibathi , Hamaffi, Shaffaii, Maliki, Hamberli; all with their own style and history all different interpretations but all the same...Islamic. They all do the Funoon sword dance and fighting mimicry with the (New) Kattara and Terrs ~

Omans History. What many may not understand is what swords were used in Oman after they ousted the Abbassids 1200 years ago? Essentially after the Abbasids left, Oman was peaceful and prosperous and sea trade flourished exponentially. This period of peace lasted nearly 400 years during which time the Old Omani Battle Sword spread all over Oman ~ Coast, Mountains and Interior.

What is important to realise is that in the 16th to 18th Centuries Oman did not have a warring Interior versus Coastal Belt using different swords e.g. . Coastal Oman Sayf curved weapons versus Interior straight Kattara.. when in fact they used the same swords; mainly Old Kattara though doubtless there were others ..Sayfs Shamshir etc. So the advent of a new blade would change the entire country sword stock though I argue not instantly but over time and perhaps 100 years or more. Change through fashionable choice via a cottage industry output and then acceptance into the Funoon; rather than huge industrial production and direct influx of Trade Blades out of Europe. I chose the word "direct" carefully since no evidence is available showing the blade moving gradually through Africa. Equally no evidence exists of a sudden influx of Trade Blades from Europe... not a shread..Its all here say!

This weapon was an Icon of Heraldic proportions.

Consider the socio-religio- political implications of a so called new sword from Europe ??

We are being fed (by association) without proof that somehow a European Trade Blade superceded this Iconic weapon, taking not only its name but the Terrrs Shield into the bargain..and with a woft of the hand "in the 17th C." ? We have seen this quality of guesswork before with spurious wild assessments of the Old Kattara some said was 16th C and some said was 10th. I know a museum that have one dated 19thC!

It seems linked, by association, to the flood of European Trade Blades into Africa. The instantaneous arrival and sudden acceptance of a European sword into Oman being apparently automatic, absolute and unquestioned ... until now.

Without proof, no research, heresay and with mere association I find that difficult to believe thus I have earmarked a closer to home explanation illustrating known blade stamps from the Ras al Khaimah where Omani (new) Kattara are produced there to this day. They already have a reputation of knife/blade making/ leather scabbard and hilt making and my investigations may lead to more discoveries and perhaps the origin of the old Kattara manufacture. I do not however rule out other manufacturing centres and it would not surprise me to find New Kattara from Muscat, Sohar, Zanzibar, Madagascar or Nizwa. (There is a new factory in Salalah making tourist new kattara by Pakistani craftsmen but that is recent and unrelated to this research.)

I believe that all Omani (New) Kattara must have flexible blades. You cannot dance or perform the (new) Funun with a sword which doesn't flex. Fight training with a non flexible heavier blade and using the Terrs is lop sided and awkward. Should we discover, however, that there is a branch of Omani New Kattara that occur with stiff blades that do/do not use the Terrs Shield I would be the first to report on it.

The straight Kattara in your photo has a Saudia or Yemeni blade and could be a one off, or a hybrid.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Photos attached show;
Long Flexible Spatulate Tipped (New) Kattara. and stamps identified as Ras Al Khaimah workshops stamps... stars (Nijimaat) and a new style of "God is Great" insignia. The (New) Kattara was made with pommel, tang and blade as an "all in one" product.

The long flexible "style" Omani (New) Kattara Circa 17th Century and Claimed to be a European Trade Blade alongside the shorter Old Omani Kattara with distinctive turned down quillons and Islamic hilt..The Old Omani Kattara. Circa 751 A.D.

[kahnjar1]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum.

OK I see your point, so I will rephrase. Of the many "new" Omani swords you see, what % of these are true Omani, with flexible blade?