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19th October 2011, 04:58 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,340
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Hey guys,
Mr.Obach, I agree with you that persian produced wootz blades are very much standardized, but the majority of them were trade blades. I have nothing to comment on the durability of wootz as I have zero knowledge of it, but I think mr.Obach is wrong to say that wootz was only made against flesh as metal armor was well into use in the 19th century? Against flesh, we know that it works well but so does other sharp things (bronze, iron etc even wood and stone) so I dont think mentioning something about sharpness contributes to durability. Regarding my comment about arabs considering Clauberg superior to persian wootz; I found an old topic by S.AlAnizi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=riyadh) Where AlSufayan (blacksmith that specialize in refitting swords/daggers) said that Persian wootz is inferior to Indian and Clauberg. I dont have any theory regarding this, but its all about the blacksmith and for whom the item is being made for :-) |
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19th October 2011, 07:35 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 116
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have you tried to cut armor ? try it
you will be surprised, it does its job very well - the only way to really know is to test it... don't read about it... go and test it to see for your own eyes  I've made chainmail sections and tried to cut it with a blade... the rings on the chain mail were not even welded or riveted and it easily stood up - place the chain mail on a wood log and tried to cut it with a hatchet ...and i could not... ...it drove the chainmail into the wood of the log and finally, 2 links cut after many chops... now, that is not at all like us... we are soft and not hard like a wood log..... so now imagine this chainmail on something soft bodied and how difficult it would be to cut also, i've seen several pieces of armor that were wootz... so those plates are steel... much more durable that normal iron to pierce armor, you will have to concentrate the force on a point... not distribute it over a large area besides, i think the popularity of armor on the battle field is low...it must have been extraordinarily expensive ... i will say, wootz is costly and difficult to make... if your equipping an army, it will not be cheap ..... would you say an English saber is better than a Katana ..... No... but it would be easier to equip an army with sabers - there is your answer now to debate something of more substance... Curved swords or Straight swords ...... 1796 lc sabre or straight blade French sabre perhaps another exercise in futility... hooray |
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19th October 2011, 10:45 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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The "wootz vs. european monosteel" argument is indeed exercise in futility from the contemporary practical point of view. The only relevant point is the still-promulgated insistence of some wootz enthusiasts that wootz as such is a kind of a wonder metal. It is not. Wootz is a heterogenous definition of an alloy used to manufacture blades of widely different compositions and forging. As a result, the final outcomes were also different. Some were excellent by their contemporary criteria, some were simply good, some were substandard. Against it, european monosteel was relatively uniform thanks to the Western insistence on scientific approach and quality control. That's it.
Do I like wootz blades? Of course. Do I wish to have more of them in my collection? Sure. Would I, with my current understanding of their quality, choose a random wootz sword or a random Solingen blade if my life depended on it? Let me think :-) |
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20th October 2011, 03:13 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 116
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the world changes...
its more than just the " standardization" factor ! Wootz is not something that i could ever see being efficiently produced compared to modern standards.. its a small batch steel by nature ! It is a very clean steel with low alloy content, except for carbon being high . - to forge it, you must use low forge temp heats therefore it almost alway has a very small grain size ( small grain size help immensely with toughness, while a large grain will be much more brittle ) forgewelding is at very high heat... if you do not take the effort to normalize the steel after... you will have a very large grained steel ... this is a potential pitfall of bloom steel ! also, i do not believe that even the smalltime wootz sword makers would not have some tests to proof a blade before it leaves the shop.. just about any bladesmith i know takes their blade to a piece of hard wood and chops away to test the edge and blade for impact strength there'll alway be the scammers and peddlers of poor goods, and rigid standards would eliminate that forsure still, you have to compare wootz to small production bloom steel ... in this respect it is good ( and in my opinion, i'd say better ) ofcourse Walloon, Puddling ... and so on, start down the road to industrialization and mass production ( a whole different barrel of apples ) - a game changer talk is cheap take your cheepest wootz sabre and sharpen it as it should be.. hang a 15inch cube of meat from a tree and slice it diagonally I'll choose wootz but, i'd never choose either sword for combat, I'll make the implements for war, but i'd never partake ..... remember the fate of that 15 inch cube of meat, remember how effortless it was to cleave in into two massive pieces..... that is a fate i won't ever risk |
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