West African ? sword for I.D. and comment.

Martin Lubojacky · 17th October 2011, 11:34 PM

Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me)
Regards,
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 17th October 2011, 11:40 PM

Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

Iain · 18th October 2011, 08:06 AM

Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you!

Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 11:58 AM

Thank you in advance Iain !

Iain · 18th October 2011, 12:05 PM

No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

colin henshaw · 25th October 2011, 02:39 PM

Hi

Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" !

However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory...

Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form"

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence).

Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London.

The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood.

Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject....

Regards.

Iain · 25th October 2011, 05:42 PM

Hi Colin,

Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit!

I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely...

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount?

I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand.

I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point?

Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence.

Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form.

I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions.

Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres.

So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.

colin henshaw · 26th October 2011, 07:04 PM

Hi Iain

Thanks for your speedy response to my last post.

Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?"

Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman"

Regards

Iain · 27th October 2011, 11:17 AM

Hi Colin,

Thanks for sharing the pictures. Very interesting muskets.

Regarding the swords, I'm afraid I don't see a lot of obvious European influence here. Unless I'm missing something? Looks like fairly typical wooden handles. Are these blades the wooden type you mentioned before?

I'm probably missing something but in terms of a European connection I'm really just not seeing it.

Cheers,

Iain

25th October 2011, 02:39 PM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" ! However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory... Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form" Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence). Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London. The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood. Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject.... Regards. Attached Images

26th October 2011, 07:04 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Iain Thanks for your speedy response to my last post. Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?" Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman" Regards Attached Images

17th October 2011, 11:34 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me) Regards, Martin

17th October 2011, 11:40 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

18th October 2011, 08:06 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you! Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

18th October 2011, 11:58 AM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you in advance Iain !

18th October 2011, 12:05 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

25th October 2011, 05:42 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Colin, Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit! I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely... Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount? I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand. I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point? Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence. Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form. I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions. Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres. So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.

27th October 2011, 11:17 AM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Colin, Thanks for sharing the pictures. Very interesting muskets. Regarding the swords, I'm afraid I don't see a lot of obvious European influence here. Unless I'm missing something? Looks like fairly typical wooden handles. Are these blades the wooden type you mentioned before? I'm probably missing something but in terms of a European connection I'm really just not seeing it. Cheers, Iain