A lion pommel hanger

M ELEY · 11th October 2011, 12:17 AM

Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2011, 07:49 PM

Hi Mark, and thank you so much for the kind words as always. I always very much appreciate your personal response and recognition of my comments, that means a lot.
I think that the most fascinating thing about history is gaining realistic perspective on the actual texture of people and events, and moving toward the less embellished features away from the exciting and ever valued literature which can of course mislead in degree. The fact hardest to remember about America in those colonial times is that the citizens were still in essence British. Naturally most weapons and materials were acquired from England, and these were in use at the time the revolution evolved.

Much as during the Civil War, there was prevalent trade through third party suppliers, actually a constant in most periods of war and conflict involving countries . It would not be at all surprising that these sabre blades described might be Solingen produced. It seems if I understand correctly the cross section on these are of what was known as 'Montmorency' form which seem to have originated or become popular around this time in the 18th century, and known on a number of British blade forms. I have seen blades by Wooley, post Revolution of course, using this section (think of our brass hilted,ebony grip sabres).
During the time of the Revolution and after, the 'sword scandals' in England were the result of British makers calling out against the prevalent use of Solingen blades.

I think that sabres and hangers of these types were well in use by individuals and officers in the Colonies in the period of thier development as recognized forms in England through the regular means of acquisition, through purchase or trade. While there was a powerful desire for firearms as primary weapons, swords were well recognized as a secondary weapon of defense in the heat of combat once these were discharged, however knives and axes would be used as available also. It seems that swords were more esteemed as icons of authority and status, thus more aligned with officers. I think these would have been realized more as trophies in the case of captured items.

M ELEY · 12th October 2011, 02:47 AM

I absolutely agree, Jim. The colonists were still very much a British sovreign, so it makes sense that many of these were already here before and as the fighting broke out. Likewise, as you said regarding captures, as a "spoil of war", a sword like this would have been much desired. I've often wondered if any of the merchant fleet taken just off Britain's coast might have had a store or two of these on board (they were obviously popular). In any case, I'm glad to have one in the collection. Thanks!

Dmitry · 24th October 2011, 04:59 AM

A similar hanger is in the British National Maritime Museum.

Again, without any naval attributes or family history, it's not possible to prove the naval provenance. NMM collection contains all kinds of swords, not necessarily naval in origin. Still, stylistically a sword similar to yours, albeit with a beefier blade of familiar style. Unusual to see a blade this stout.

M ELEY · 24th October 2011, 03:38 PM

Wow! Look at the blade on that thing! Another fantastic example with some of its gilding still intact! The National Maritime Museum has some great pics online of other naval pieces and I love to stumble upon them now and again. Hope to someday make it there.

11th October 2011, 07:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, and thank you so much for the kind words as always. I always very much appreciate your personal response and recognition of my comments, that means a lot. I think that the most fascinating thing about history is gaining realistic perspective on the actual texture of people and events, and moving toward the less embellished features away from the exciting and ever valued literature which can of course mislead in degree. The fact hardest to remember about America in those colonial times is that the citizens were still in essence British. Naturally most weapons and materials were acquired from England, and these were in use at the time the revolution evolved. Much as during the Civil War, there was prevalent trade through third party suppliers, actually a constant in most periods of war and conflict involving countries . It would not be at all surprising that these sabre blades described might be Solingen produced. It seems if I understand correctly the cross section on these are of what was known as 'Montmorency' form which seem to have originated or become popular around this time in the 18th century, and known on a number of British blade forms. I have seen blades by Wooley, post Revolution of course, using this section (think of our brass hilted,ebony grip sabres). During the time of the Revolution and after, the 'sword scandals' in England were the result of British makers calling out against the prevalent use of Solingen blades. I think that sabres and hangers of these types were well in use by individuals and officers in the Colonies in the period of thier development as recognized forms in England through the regular means of acquisition, through purchase or trade. While there was a powerful desire for firearms as primary weapons, swords were well recognized as a secondary weapon of defense in the heat of combat once these were discharged, however knives and axes would be used as available also. It seems that swords were more esteemed as icons of authority and status, thus more aligned with officers. I think these would have been realized more as trophies in the case of captured items. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2011 at 08:27 PM.

11th October 2011, 12:17 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...

12th October 2011, 02:47 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I absolutely agree, Jim. The colonists were still very much a British sovreign, so it makes sense that many of these were already here before and as the fighting broke out. Likewise, as you said regarding captures, as a "spoil of war", a sword like this would have been much desired. I've often wondered if any of the merchant fleet taken just off Britain's coast might have had a store or two of these on board (they were obviously popular). In any case, I'm glad to have one in the collection. Thanks!

24th October 2011, 04:59 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	A similar hanger is in the British National Maritime Museum. Again, without any naval attributes or family history, it's not possible to prove the naval provenance. NMM collection contains all kinds of swords, not necessarily naval in origin. Still, stylistically a sword similar to yours, albeit with a beefier blade of familiar style. Unusual to see a blade this stout.

24th October 2011, 03:38 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Wow! Look at the blade on that thing! Another fantastic example with some of its gilding still intact! The National Maritime Museum has some great pics online of other naval pieces and I love to stumble upon them now and again. Hope to someday make it there.