A lion pommel hanger

Norman McCormick · 10th October 2011, 07:23 PM

Hi,
Another silver lion for the 'pride'.
Regards,
Norman

M ELEY · 10th October 2011, 10:01 PM

Dmitry and Norman,

You have both reduced me to tears!! Absolutely beautiful examples that anyone would be proud to own. Remember me in your wills-

Thank you for posting them here for this thread so that others can see how amazing this sword form truly is.

M ELEY · 10th October 2011, 10:13 PM

Hello Jim and thank you so very much for your valuable comments!
Quite to the contrary, what you said is probably the most important part of this discussion. One must differentiate between the points that although my hanger is English made, it very possibly could have ended up in a colonist's hands. There were very few quality American sword makers during this period and while blacksmith-made swords were more common, a sword of quality had to come from outside the colonies. Considering the vast numbers of American soldiers of the period, arms were desperately needed.

One of the crucial ways this could be accomplished was through capture. Considering the numbers you quote of captured merchant ships alone, one can see where the necessity was met. Whether through capture in battle, plundering from ships or supply lines, or through illicit purchase (there were still those on the continent selling to the colonies), it definately leaves the door open for American use. Your point drives home the reason Neumann's guide contains so many different weapons from other nationalities and periods: for the colonists, it was make do with what one could get their hands on. They did what they had to do to survive, like a certain occupation of 'sea robbers' I'm familiar with-

Thank you for reminding me of this fact and keeping me on my toes, Jim

Mark

Dmitry · 10th October 2011, 11:58 PM

Most small arms came into continental hands not through capture, as heroic and romantic as it sounds, but by banal purchases and 'foreign aid', mainly from the French, who have shipped thousands of strands of muskets and piles of swords, and through the Dutch merchants in St.Eustatius and other Caribbean ports. Instances of arms capture from the British ships are known, and are few. Officer weapons were all private purchases. I would assume that 'certain English cutlers' continued to trade in them through third parties even during the Rev.War.
The interesting part of these lion-headed hangers is not just the hilts, but the blades as well, which for the most part are uniform in shape, as shown above, and are mostly undecorated. I would wager that they were made in Solingen, and hilted in England, London, for the most part. My silver-hilted example is an exception, it's mounted with a trophy Seven Year War period blade marked Grenadiers de France. It was discussed on the sword Forum some years back. But the rest are all the same, more or less. Just my $.02.

M ELEY · 11th October 2011, 12:17 AM

Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2011, 07:49 PM

Hi Mark, and thank you so much for the kind words as always. I always very much appreciate your personal response and recognition of my comments, that means a lot.
I think that the most fascinating thing about history is gaining realistic perspective on the actual texture of people and events, and moving toward the less embellished features away from the exciting and ever valued literature which can of course mislead in degree. The fact hardest to remember about America in those colonial times is that the citizens were still in essence British. Naturally most weapons and materials were acquired from England, and these were in use at the time the revolution evolved.

Much as during the Civil War, there was prevalent trade through third party suppliers, actually a constant in most periods of war and conflict involving countries . It would not be at all surprising that these sabre blades described might be Solingen produced. It seems if I understand correctly the cross section on these are of what was known as 'Montmorency' form which seem to have originated or become popular around this time in the 18th century, and known on a number of British blade forms. I have seen blades by Wooley, post Revolution of course, using this section (think of our brass hilted,ebony grip sabres).
During the time of the Revolution and after, the 'sword scandals' in England were the result of British makers calling out against the prevalent use of Solingen blades.

I think that sabres and hangers of these types were well in use by individuals and officers in the Colonies in the period of thier development as recognized forms in England through the regular means of acquisition, through purchase or trade. While there was a powerful desire for firearms as primary weapons, swords were well recognized as a secondary weapon of defense in the heat of combat once these were discharged, however knives and axes would be used as available also. It seems that swords were more esteemed as icons of authority and status, thus more aligned with officers. I think these would have been realized more as trophies in the case of captured items.

M ELEY · 12th October 2011, 02:47 AM

I absolutely agree, Jim. The colonists were still very much a British sovreign, so it makes sense that many of these were already here before and as the fighting broke out. Likewise, as you said regarding captures, as a "spoil of war", a sword like this would have been much desired. I've often wondered if any of the merchant fleet taken just off Britain's coast might have had a store or two of these on board (they were obviously popular). In any case, I'm glad to have one in the collection. Thanks!

10th October 2011, 07:23 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Another silver lion for the 'pride'. Regards, Norman Attached Images

11th October 2011, 07:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, and thank you so much for the kind words as always. I always very much appreciate your personal response and recognition of my comments, that means a lot. I think that the most fascinating thing about history is gaining realistic perspective on the actual texture of people and events, and moving toward the less embellished features away from the exciting and ever valued literature which can of course mislead in degree. The fact hardest to remember about America in those colonial times is that the citizens were still in essence British. Naturally most weapons and materials were acquired from England, and these were in use at the time the revolution evolved. Much as during the Civil War, there was prevalent trade through third party suppliers, actually a constant in most periods of war and conflict involving countries . It would not be at all surprising that these sabre blades described might be Solingen produced. It seems if I understand correctly the cross section on these are of what was known as 'Montmorency' form which seem to have originated or become popular around this time in the 18th century, and known on a number of British blade forms. I have seen blades by Wooley, post Revolution of course, using this section (think of our brass hilted,ebony grip sabres). During the time of the Revolution and after, the 'sword scandals' in England were the result of British makers calling out against the prevalent use of Solingen blades. I think that sabres and hangers of these types were well in use by individuals and officers in the Colonies in the period of thier development as recognized forms in England through the regular means of acquisition, through purchase or trade. While there was a powerful desire for firearms as primary weapons, swords were well recognized as a secondary weapon of defense in the heat of combat once these were discharged, however knives and axes would be used as available also. It seems that swords were more esteemed as icons of authority and status, thus more aligned with officers. I think these would have been realized more as trophies in the case of captured items. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2011 at 08:27 PM.

10th October 2011, 10:01 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Dmitry and Norman, You have both reduced me to tears!! Absolutely beautiful examples that anyone would be proud to own. Remember me in your wills- Thank you for posting them here for this thread so that others can see how amazing this sword form truly is.

10th October 2011, 10:13 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Jim and thank you so very much for your valuable comments! Quite to the contrary, what you said is probably the most important part of this discussion. One must differentiate between the points that although my hanger is English made, it very possibly could have ended up in a colonist's hands. There were very few quality American sword makers during this period and while blacksmith-made swords were more common, a sword of quality had to come from outside the colonies. Considering the vast numbers of American soldiers of the period, arms were desperately needed. One of the crucial ways this could be accomplished was through capture. Considering the numbers you quote of captured merchant ships alone, one can see where the necessity was met. Whether through capture in battle, plundering from ships or supply lines, or through illicit purchase (there were still those on the continent selling to the colonies), it definately leaves the door open for American use. Your point drives home the reason Neumann's guide contains so many different weapons from other nationalities and periods: for the colonists, it was make do with what one could get their hands on. They did what they had to do to survive, like a certain occupation of 'sea robbers' I'm familiar with- Thank you for reminding me of this fact and keeping me on my toes, Jim Mark

10th October 2011, 11:58 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Most small arms came into continental hands not through capture, as heroic and romantic as it sounds, but by banal purchases and 'foreign aid', mainly from the French, who have shipped thousands of strands of muskets and piles of swords, and through the Dutch merchants in St.Eustatius and other Caribbean ports. Instances of arms capture from the British ships are known, and are few. Officer weapons were all private purchases. I would assume that 'certain English cutlers' continued to trade in them through third parties even during the Rev.War. The interesting part of these lion-headed hangers is not just the hilts, but the blades as well, which for the most part are uniform in shape, as shown above, and are mostly undecorated. I would wager that they were made in Solingen, and hilted in England, London, for the most part. My silver-hilted example is an exception, it's mounted with a trophy Seven Year War period blade marked Grenadiers de France. It was discussed on the sword Forum some years back. But the rest are all the same, more or less. Just my $.02.

11th October 2011, 12:17 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...

12th October 2011, 02:47 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I absolutely agree, Jim. The colonists were still very much a British sovreign, so it makes sense that many of these were already here before and as the fighting broke out. Likewise, as you said regarding captures, as a "spoil of war", a sword like this would have been much desired. I've often wondered if any of the merchant fleet taken just off Britain's coast might have had a store or two of these on board (they were obviously popular). In any case, I'm glad to have one in the collection. Thanks!