North Afrika Sword ?

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2011, 07:18 PM

Hi Chregu,
I must apologize for lack of attention to your posting of this type sword, which a number of years ago would have brought a hornets nest of activity. I have anxiously been hoping that Ibrahiim, our resident authority on these swords from Oman, would respond. He has completed a great deal of considerably thorough research, coupled with the fact that he is situated in Oman.
I will add what I can recall from our discussions and try to describe more on this extremely desirable sword from Oman that you have posted.

In Robert Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (p.17, fig. 2.13 and 2.15) he illustrates and describes these curious and ancient looking swords from Oman with the suggestion that they may be a proto-kattara (these being the long blade broadswords with cylindrical hilt).

Apparantly as revealed in fascinating discussions with Ibrahiim held here last May, these downward quilloned swords are from the interior of Oman, situated around the capital of Nizwa, and are of a form extant for many centuries. These seem to have evolved from earlier Abbasid battle swords from about 8-9th centuries, and remained in use by the tribes in the interior who are primarily followers of the Ibadi sect of Islam. It appears that the coastal regions of Oman, known as Muscat, is where the other form of kattara developed with the maritime trade and mercants there.

With constant conflict between the Ibadi tribes of the interior and the quite separate religiously and culturally Muscat coastal regions, the schism resulted in virtually two disconnected parts to Oman. With this, these traditional form swords stood in use concurrently with the more famliar cylindrical hilted kattara typically carried by the merchants of Muscat and becoming well known from coastal trade ports into Africa and Omans Zanzibar Sultanate.

Examples of this type also seen in "Arms and Armour of the Muslim Knight" (p.79, #43) where the form is generally regarded as 17th-18th century, but certainly remained in use much later, probably even into 20th century. Again, these would be considered an Omani sa'if in the sense that it is from Oman, but separate in form from the distinctive and familiar cylindrical hilted 'kattara' well known throughout Arabian trade routes.

I hope this helps, and hopefully Ibrahiim will come in and better detail my admittedly rough explanation.

All best regards,
Jim

chregu · 5th October 2011, 07:01 PM

hello together
Thanks for all your information. the sword is not mine, so I've added no additional images. Unfortunately. have asked for more pictures, especially for close-ups.
as soon as I get what I'll include it.
Thanks for your help

chregu · 11th October 2011, 09:57 PM

hello together
have received new and good photos. even if it be desired mer is a lot more!
Yours sincerely Chregu

fernando · 12th October 2011, 09:32 AM

Good pictures Chregu.
Does this sword belong to some collector friend of yours?
Why doesn't he join us?

Iain · 14th October 2011, 10:12 AM

I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.

Jim McDougall · 14th October 2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.

Good question Iain, it seems that it has become a fairly regular practice for members to present weapons from friends, relatives or whatever . Do these people not have computers, or is it simply they are too timid to join us (we cant possibly be that intimidating

At least the tired old saw of 'I just inherited this' or found this in an attic, wall etc. has subsided (in our forum at least).

By the number of hits on a thread compared to the responses (numbers like 100 or even many hundreds to one) it can be seen there are literally huge numbers of those lurking, but not contributing or commenting. I would imagine there is considerable material or examples out there which is not presented due to shy and timid lurkers who apparantly do not have friends among members who can boldly present thier weapons for them.
What a pity.

The very reason I research and post the material I do is in hopes it might be read and of some value to the weapon holder. The typical responses indicate that such validity is difficult to express by third party.

fernando · 14th October 2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I would imagine there is considerable material or examples out there which is not presented due to shy and timid lurkers who apparantly do not have friends among members who can boldly present thier weapons for them.
What a pity.

11th October 2011, 09:57 PM	#3
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	new pictures hello together have received new and good photos. even if it be desired mer is a lot more! Yours sincerely Chregu Attached Images

4th October 2011, 07:18 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Chregu, I must apologize for lack of attention to your posting of this type sword, which a number of years ago would have brought a hornets nest of activity. I have anxiously been hoping that Ibrahiim, our resident authority on these swords from Oman, would respond. He has completed a great deal of considerably thorough research, coupled with the fact that he is situated in Oman. I will add what I can recall from our discussions and try to describe more on this extremely desirable sword from Oman that you have posted. In Robert Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (p.17, fig. 2.13 and 2.15) he illustrates and describes these curious and ancient looking swords from Oman with the suggestion that they may be a proto-kattara (these being the long blade broadswords with cylindrical hilt). Apparantly as revealed in fascinating discussions with Ibrahiim held here last May, these downward quilloned swords are from the interior of Oman, situated around the capital of Nizwa, and are of a form extant for many centuries. These seem to have evolved from earlier Abbasid battle swords from about 8-9th centuries, and remained in use by the tribes in the interior who are primarily followers of the Ibadi sect of Islam. It appears that the coastal regions of Oman, known as Muscat, is where the other form of kattara developed with the maritime trade and mercants there. With constant conflict between the Ibadi tribes of the interior and the quite separate religiously and culturally Muscat coastal regions, the schism resulted in virtually two disconnected parts to Oman. With this, these traditional form swords stood in use concurrently with the more famliar cylindrical hilted kattara typically carried by the merchants of Muscat and becoming well known from coastal trade ports into Africa and Omans Zanzibar Sultanate. Examples of this type also seen in "Arms and Armour of the Muslim Knight" (p.79, #43) where the form is generally regarded as 17th-18th century, but certainly remained in use much later, probably even into 20th century. Again, these would be considered an Omani sa'if in the sense that it is from Oman, but separate in form from the distinctive and familiar cylindrical hilted 'kattara' well known throughout Arabian trade routes. I hope this helps, and hopefully Ibrahiim will come in and better detail my admittedly rough explanation. All best regards, Jim

5th October 2011, 07:01 PM	#2
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together Thanks for all your information. the sword is not mine, so I've added no additional images. Unfortunately. have asked for more pictures, especially for close-ups. as soon as I get what I'll include it. Thanks for your help

12th October 2011, 09:32 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good pictures Chregu. Does this sword belong to some collector friend of yours? Why doesn't he join us?

14th October 2011, 10:12 AM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.