Maghrebi (?) Saif for Comment

Billman · 27th September 2011, 10:33 AM

Not heard the word "gurda" used to describe the mark on the blade so did a quick web search and found this site:

(site deleted)

Probably already well known to all you weapons buffs, buy just in case it is new - some similar gurda marks on the blades they are selling...

broadaxe · 27th September 2011, 03:13 PM

I believe this pattern welded blade was made and meant to be shown as-is, on purpose. While it might be Caucasian, I strongly believe it is German or Magyar, because of its shape. One of my Bedouin sabers has a caucasian blade (a lot of gurdas all the way...), possibly Khevsurian and it is almost dead straight, looking like an extra-long butcher knife. Another saber has a d-guard, but it is rather simple piece of bent metal. Billman, you can start a thread on billhooks if you like and post the photos you have, I'll throw in some of mine.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billman

Not heard the word "gurda" used to describe the mark on the blade so did a quick web search and found this site:

(Site deleted)

Probably already well known to all you weapons buffs, buy just in case it is new - some similar gurda marks on the blades they are selling...

Salaams ... That is a nice website and they have some great publications for sale ... Theres a few swords with Gurda marks too... on Palash Khevsur swords. I hope that one day we can have a full on weapons book library on the forum.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2011, 06:03 PM

Teodor thank you so much for putting the steam back into this thread!! and for posting a great example of Afghan 'shashka'. These are referred to as 'psuedo shashkas' by Lebedynsky as while they are of the Caucasian shashka form, like guardless Bukharen sabres they are actually are of a separate group.

These hatchet tip blades are cavalry blades of usually latter 18th century and typically were German and East European, actually the influence for the British M1796 pattern swords. Actually Solingen makers were producing these into the 19th century as is shown in illustrations in Gilkerson ("Boarders Away") and similar blades often ended up on cutlass type weapons.

The 'gurda' is simply the Caucasian term used to describe blades made typically in Chechen regions and bearing these dentated arcs commonly referred to as 'sickle marks'. These paired toothed arcs appear to have originated in North Italy (often presumed Genoa, however many locations used them in various forms) then were copied in Styrian regions and later other regions as marks of quality. Like many other such marks they were likely associated with trade guilds, and became signals of quality control because of those associations.

As previously mentioned, blades from Germany as well as from East Europe entered the trade networks and in degree many of these blades were from Caucasian regions, particularly those of Chechnya. Those Khevsur blades with the 'sickle' (gurda) marks lining the blade back were (according to Askhabov) produced in Chechnya in Ataghi, I have seen them as well usually on Khevsur 'pranguli'. Elgood notes that blades with presumably Hungarian origin are termed with reference to 'Magyar' (cant think of the term offhand).
It will be noted that many of the Syrian hilt sabres (Badawi) have blades with Hungarian mottos in Latin, thus I have seen them misidentified as Hungarian hussar sabres through the years.
Clearly these blades entered Arabian markets through Syria, and through there into the Sinai regions via Bedouin trade and interaction.

Actually the forum itself contains many threads and references which in effect is very much a library, and can be utilized best by using the search feature using key words. In any case, asking the questions here always gives us the opportunity to bolster the ever growing archives here and often add to those many years of threads with valuable data.
Always learning together!!!!

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 20th November 2011, 06:07 AM

Here is another one of those swords, also found in Bulgaria. The hilt is in rough shape, with the knickleguard and the metal band on the pommel missing. The blade is quite interesting, with a mark which I read as GENOA. How would you gentlemen date it?

Thank you,
Teodor

27th September 2011, 10:33 AM	#1
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Not heard the word "gurda" used to describe the mark on the blade so did a quick web search and found this site: (site deleted) Probably already well known to all you weapons buffs, buy just in case it is new - some similar gurda marks on the blades they are selling... Last edited by David; 27th September 2011 at 11:42 PM.

20th November 2011, 06:07 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Here is another one of those swords, also found in Bulgaria. The hilt is in rough shape, with the knickleguard and the metal band on the pommel missing. The blade is quite interesting, with a mark which I read as GENOA. How would you gentlemen date it? Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

27th September 2011, 03:13 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	I believe this pattern welded blade was made and meant to be shown as-is, on purpose. While it might be Caucasian, I strongly believe it is German or Magyar, because of its shape. One of my Bedouin sabers has a caucasian blade (a lot of gurdas all the way...), possibly Khevsurian and it is almost dead straight, looking like an extra-long butcher knife. Another saber has a d-guard, but it is rather simple piece of bent metal. Billman, you can start a thread on billhooks if you like and post the photos you have, I'll throw in some of mine.

27th September 2011, 06:03 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Teodor thank you so much for putting the steam back into this thread!! and for posting a great example of Afghan 'shashka'. These are referred to as 'psuedo shashkas' by Lebedynsky as while they are of the Caucasian shashka form, like guardless Bukharen sabres they are actually are of a separate group. These hatchet tip blades are cavalry blades of usually latter 18th century and typically were German and East European, actually the influence for the British M1796 pattern swords. Actually Solingen makers were producing these into the 19th century as is shown in illustrations in Gilkerson ("Boarders Away") and similar blades often ended up on cutlass type weapons. The 'gurda' is simply the Caucasian term used to describe blades made typically in Chechen regions and bearing these dentated arcs commonly referred to as 'sickle marks'. These paired toothed arcs appear to have originated in North Italy (often presumed Genoa, however many locations used them in various forms) then were copied in Styrian regions and later other regions as marks of quality. Like many other such marks they were likely associated with trade guilds, and became signals of quality control because of those associations. As previously mentioned, blades from Germany as well as from East Europe entered the trade networks and in degree many of these blades were from Caucasian regions, particularly those of Chechnya. Those Khevsur blades with the 'sickle' (gurda) marks lining the blade back were (according to Askhabov) produced in Chechnya in Ataghi, I have seen them as well usually on Khevsur 'pranguli'. Elgood notes that blades with presumably Hungarian origin are termed with reference to 'Magyar' (cant think of the term offhand). It will be noted that many of the Syrian hilt sabres (Badawi) have blades with Hungarian mottos in Latin, thus I have seen them misidentified as Hungarian hussar sabres through the years. Clearly these blades entered Arabian markets through Syria, and through there into the Sinai regions via Bedouin trade and interaction. Actually the forum itself contains many threads and references which in effect is very much a library, and can be utilized best by using the search feature using key words. In any case, asking the questions here always gives us the opportunity to bolster the ever growing archives here and often add to those many years of threads with valuable data. Always learning together!!!! All the best, Jim