A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

ariel · 29th July 2005, 02:25 PM

Interestingly, the arrows were rarely lethal outright, unless they penetrated deeply into a vital organ: heart, head, major arteries etc. The main problem with them was that the barbs prevented their safe removal: pulling them introduced very extensive crushing damage to the surrounding tissues and pushing them through was also traumatic. Having an infected foreign body stuck within a dead tissue is a prescription for disaster: the wound got infected and the warriors died later of sepsis.
Mongols had an ingenious solution: every warrior wore a shirt made of silk. This fabric is strong, light and pliable. Thus, the arrow did not penetrate the silk but rather carried it into the wound. Since the arrowhead rotated, the silk got wrapped around it and "padded" the barbs. A skilled doctor could then safely remove the arrow by pulling and then use such powerful anti-infection remedies as cobwebs, dirt, boiled cow urine etc.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2005, 04:14 PM

True what Brian writes, the katars were mail ‘openers’, and some of them were even specialised for doing the work. I doubt, that there was a mail shirt, which one of these specialised katars could not open. Unfortunately it has not been proven yet, as far as I know, as the museums and the collectors don’t want to deliver the test shirts – sadly, as it is in the interest of a scientific experiment

.

Rivkin · 29th July 2005, 04:46 PM

Dear All,

My opinion, as much as it ignorant, will probably be insulting to most of the members, for that I'm sorry.

It's one thing to scream on top of your lungs, madly shaking your hands, while hanging by nearly invisible threads on a movie set. It's a different thing to have a duel - a ritualized fight in between of two individuals. It's a completely different thing to have an effective army.

Nowadays it's believed that those cultures that are famous for martial arts had good soldiers. It's incomprehensible for many how precursors of shao-lin monks with their secret knowledge of chi used nomad mercenaries for their best units. How the all feared samurai had tremendous problems with their empire building in Korea (not to mention same old bad nomads).

On the other hand mongols were what is considered by modern standards complete loosers. They did not know how to kill people with their own hair (they preferred to use bows), they did not know about deep spirituality of the pose of five winds in the style of three monkies, they did not have elaborate weapons, all of the warriors carrying the same simple set of very basic weapons - bow, lance, mace and sword - when you know which weapons work, and which don't you tend to stick with the ones that do, rather than with the ones that don't but definitely 'cool'.

Rick · 29th July 2005, 05:02 PM

Hi Kirill, I'm not insulted by your post but I admit that I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here .

How does this relate to mail and katars and whether their purpose was to defeat mail or not ?

Rivkin · 29th July 2005, 05:46 PM

no relation

. Just seen a comment on martial arts and variety of indian weapons, and wanted to take a long held opinion from my chest.

ham · 29th July 2005, 07:35 PM

Gentlemen,

Those of us who grew up in Western Europe or America learned from museums, books and films that European mail was stronger than that used in the Islamic and Hindu East, as were the swords. That isn't true unless, as I believe has been stated above, one is comparing European mail from the period when it represented a primary defense-- say 11th- 13th c., and Indian or Persian mail of the 19th century, by which time it hardly represents armor at all anymore, with rings often made of soft iron wire that have been butted together to close them-- a classic case of apples and oranges.
Worthier of comparison with the finest European mail was a coat of Mamluk mail which I had the opportunity to examine recently, dating between the 14th-15th century. A conservative group, the Mamluks maintaned arms and methods of warfare from at least the mid 12th c. down to the 16th, including the use of straight, double-edged swords and rather distinctive coats of mail (this is not of course, to ignore the introduction of sabers as well as occasional variations in armor apparent during the course of Mamluk history.) The coat I examined had rings 5/8" or 1.5 cm in diameter. These rings were relatively thick (approx. 2 mm) and stamped with 2 concentric lines which I suspect served to flatten as well as harden them. Each ring was closed with a rectangular rivet which was peaned on both sides. The shirt had a high collar laced with leather to stiffen it, a short overlapping opening at the neck which ran down about 20 cm and a hem with a single vent front and rear, which would reach to about mid-thigh on a man of average height. It had 3/4 length sleeves. It weighed roughly 25 pounds (12 kg.)
This coat, worn by a well-trained man who was likewise protected by a shield and helmet, arm- and legguards, could stand up to considerable force, by lance, bow, axe or hammer/mace or even katar. But I must stress that training, particularly for a horseman, would be at least as important in protecting a warrior as the quality of his mail, as was also true for the European knight. Such coats were likewise worn in Russia up to the 17th century, usually over yet another coat of smaller rings-- this may be a particularly Russian affectation or may provide some indication of how mail was used as protection in the Near East as well.
In all cases but the Japanese, the material record of Eastern weapons is far outnumbered by the European-- this inequity has led arms historians to make many errors in the past 150 years, particulary when drawing comparisons between the two. Such errors, sometimes so obvious as to be funny, should really remind us to be sure of our own comparisons... and comments.
Sincerely,

Ham

29th July 2005, 04:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	True what Brian writes, the katars were mail ‘openers’, and some of them were even specialised for doing the work. I doubt, that there was a mail shirt, which one of these specialised katars could not open. Unfortunately it has not been proven yet, as far as I know, as the museums and the collectors don’t want to deliver the test shirts – sadly, as it is in the interest of a scientific experiment. Attached Images

29th July 2005, 02:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interestingly, the arrows were rarely lethal outright, unless they penetrated deeply into a vital organ: heart, head, major arteries etc. The main problem with them was that the barbs prevented their safe removal: pulling them introduced very extensive crushing damage to the surrounding tissues and pushing them through was also traumatic. Having an infected foreign body stuck within a dead tissue is a prescription for disaster: the wound got infected and the warriors died later of sepsis. Mongols had an ingenious solution: every warrior wore a shirt made of silk. This fabric is strong, light and pliable. Thus, the arrow did not penetrate the silk but rather carried it into the wound. Since the arrowhead rotated, the silk got wrapped around it and "padded" the barbs. A skilled doctor could then safely remove the arrow by pulling and then use such powerful anti-infection remedies as cobwebs, dirt, boiled cow urine etc.

29th July 2005, 04:46 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Dear All, My opinion, as much as it ignorant, will probably be insulting to most of the members, for that I'm sorry. It's one thing to scream on top of your lungs, madly shaking your hands, while hanging by nearly invisible threads on a movie set. It's a different thing to have a duel - a ritualized fight in between of two individuals. It's a completely different thing to have an effective army. Nowadays it's believed that those cultures that are famous for martial arts had good soldiers. It's incomprehensible for many how precursors of shao-lin monks with their secret knowledge of chi used nomad mercenaries for their best units. How the all feared samurai had tremendous problems with their empire building in Korea (not to mention same old bad nomads). On the other hand mongols were what is considered by modern standards complete loosers. They did not know how to kill people with their own hair (they preferred to use bows), they did not know about deep spirituality of the pose of five winds in the style of three monkies, they did not have elaborate weapons, all of the warriors carrying the same simple set of very basic weapons - bow, lance, mace and sword - when you know which weapons work, and which don't you tend to stick with the ones that do, rather than with the ones that don't but definitely 'cool'.

29th July 2005, 05:02 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hi Kirill, I'm not insulted by your post but I admit that I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here . How does this relate to mail and katars and whether their purpose was to defeat mail or not ?

29th July 2005, 05:46 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	no relation . Just seen a comment on martial arts and variety of indian weapons, and wanted to take a long held opinion from my chest.

29th July 2005, 07:35 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Those of us who grew up in Western Europe or America learned from museums, books and films that European mail was stronger than that used in the Islamic and Hindu East, as were the swords. That isn't true unless, as I believe has been stated above, one is comparing European mail from the period when it represented a primary defense-- say 11th- 13th c., and Indian or Persian mail of the 19th century, by which time it hardly represents armor at all anymore, with rings often made of soft iron wire that have been butted together to close them-- a classic case of apples and oranges. Worthier of comparison with the finest European mail was a coat of Mamluk mail which I had the opportunity to examine recently, dating between the 14th-15th century. A conservative group, the Mamluks maintaned arms and methods of warfare from at least the mid 12th c. down to the 16th, including the use of straight, double-edged swords and rather distinctive coats of mail (this is not of course, to ignore the introduction of sabers as well as occasional variations in armor apparent during the course of Mamluk history.) The coat I examined had rings 5/8" or 1.5 cm in diameter. These rings were relatively thick (approx. 2 mm) and stamped with 2 concentric lines which I suspect served to flatten as well as harden them. Each ring was closed with a rectangular rivet which was peaned on both sides. The shirt had a high collar laced with leather to stiffen it, a short overlapping opening at the neck which ran down about 20 cm and a hem with a single vent front and rear, which would reach to about mid-thigh on a man of average height. It had 3/4 length sleeves. It weighed roughly 25 pounds (12 kg.) This coat, worn by a well-trained man who was likewise protected by a shield and helmet, arm- and legguards, could stand up to considerable force, by lance, bow, axe or hammer/mace or even katar. But I must stress that training, particularly for a horseman, would be at least as important in protecting a warrior as the quality of his mail, as was also true for the European knight. Such coats were likewise worn in Russia up to the 17th century, usually over yet another coat of smaller rings-- this may be a particularly Russian affectation or may provide some indication of how mail was used as protection in the Near East as well. In all cases but the Japanese, the material record of Eastern weapons is far outnumbered by the European-- this inequity has led arms historians to make many errors in the past 150 years, particulary when drawing comparisons between the two. Such errors, sometimes so obvious as to be funny, should really remind us to be sure of our own comparisons... and comments. Sincerely, Ham