Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

TVV · 15th September 2011, 02:21 AM

Jim, I am far from being an expert or even someone well versed in the subject of Polish and Zaporozhian Cossack swords, but I have enjoyed reading your thorough posts on the subject. I have learnt a lot from them, and I am sure that others will also benefit from the thread in the future.

On the main question of the thread - how to make a grip to fit the sword, I would leave it without a grip if it were mine. You can guess at a grip based on surviving specimens, but there is no way of knowing how the grip of this particular sword looked like. From a historical point of view, adding a grip will temper with the authenticity of the sword as a whole, and from a collecting point of view, a new grip will not be cheap if well made and fitted, but will add $0 to the overall value of the sword (unless it is passed as being original upon resale, which will be fraudulent).

I am sure that everyone has his/her own opinion on this issue, but mine is to leave it as is: the lack of the grip does not detract from this nice sabre.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2011, 04:20 AM

Thank you very much Teodor, and as you know, personally I am very much with you, I believe in leaving weapons status quo with the exception of stabilizing any active rust or corrosion. As Jeff D. mentioned on the original thread, if any restoration is to be done, it should be done professionally and with considerable restraint. There is nothing worse to be than to see an old warrior stripped of the patination it earned through the years, and overcleaned to garish brightness. Not saying that Evgeny or anyone else here would do that but the concerns remain regardless.
Its always good hearing from you!
Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2011, 06:43 PM

Entertaining

While Evgeny has 'left our building' it seems that there has been at last some activity on his thread over on 'the other side'. In the developing investigation I see that the pages (apparantly from the Zabloski book) which Vitaly posted on our original thread (on Ethnographic) have been posted on the thread.
As thier investigation ensues it seems they believe the sabre is early 17th century, however their observation is based on the Zablonski reference, and none of the material presented here seems to have been of any use to them. My invitation to openly use the material provided here over on the other forum was meant seriously, as I know my research is intended to be shared.
Wouldn't it be amazing if those serious about weapons research could 'share' information without interfora politics ? I can recall efforts for years many years ago trying to accomplish that, resulting rather unfortunately in the response. I regret that Evgeny left, and as always saw that glimmer of hope.
In any case, thank you all for your kind support here, you guys are great!!!

All the best,
Jim

Evgeny_K · 18th September 2011, 10:45 PM

I'm again here)

Jim, I'm very grateful for your very detailed and informative answer!
At one of Russian forums I've already heard that this is probably a Cossack's sword/saber. And interestingly enough, that this sword came to me from the Ukraine)

I forgot to specify at the beginning, that the pommel (drop-shaped top) is still remained.

I do not support reckless "restoration", so I'll try to be very gentle)

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2011, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

I'm again here)

Jim, I'm very grateful for your very detailed and informative answer!
At one of Russian forums I've already heard that this is probably a Cossack's sword/saber. And interestingly enough, that this sword came to me from the Ukraine)

I forgot to specify at the beginning, that the pommel (drop-shaped top) is still remained.

I do not support reckless "restoration", so I'll try to be very gentle)

Evgeny, Im very glad to see you back! Too often someone will pop in with a query and then be gone. As noted I feared you had 'left the building' due to the tardy response, so thank you for returning.

It is a very nice sabre you have posted, and as I have indicated, the results of research some years ago concerning swords of the Zaporozhian cossacks
suggest these Polish sabres are known among those used in the Ukraine.
From the tone of your posts, I knew you would favor reasonable degree in restoration and appreciate your diligence in seeking detail.

Please keep us posted here of your progress, it is good to see old warriors properly cared for.

All the best,
Jim

Evgeny_K · 22nd September 2011, 10:28 AM

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2011, 06:09 AM

Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context.
Which of the Osprey publications is this from?

All best,
Jim

Evgeny_K · 19th September 2011, 07:51 AM

...

22nd September 2011, 10:28 AM	#6
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	Attached Images

19th September 2011, 07:51 AM	#8
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	... Last edited by Evgeny_K; 19th September 2011 at 10:05 AM.

15th September 2011, 02:21 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim, I am far from being an expert or even someone well versed in the subject of Polish and Zaporozhian Cossack swords, but I have enjoyed reading your thorough posts on the subject. I have learnt a lot from them, and I am sure that others will also benefit from the thread in the future. On the main question of the thread - how to make a grip to fit the sword, I would leave it without a grip if it were mine. You can guess at a grip based on surviving specimens, but there is no way of knowing how the grip of this particular sword looked like. From a historical point of view, adding a grip will temper with the authenticity of the sword as a whole, and from a collecting point of view, a new grip will not be cheap if well made and fitted, but will add $0 to the overall value of the sword (unless it is passed as being original upon resale, which will be fraudulent). I am sure that everyone has his/her own opinion on this issue, but mine is to leave it as is: the lack of the grip does not detract from this nice sabre. Teodor

15th September 2011, 04:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you very much Teodor, and as you know, personally I am very much with you, I believe in leaving weapons status quo with the exception of stabilizing any active rust or corrosion. As Jeff D. mentioned on the original thread, if any restoration is to be done, it should be done professionally and with considerable restraint. There is nothing worse to be than to see an old warrior stripped of the patination it earned through the years, and overcleaned to garish brightness. Not saying that Evgeny or anyone else here would do that but the concerns remain regardless. Its always good hearing from you! Best regards, Jim

16th September 2011, 06:43 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Entertaining While Evgeny has 'left our building' it seems that there has been at last some activity on his thread over on 'the other side'. In the developing investigation I see that the pages (apparantly from the Zabloski book) which Vitaly posted on our original thread (on Ethnographic) have been posted on the thread. As thier investigation ensues it seems they believe the sabre is early 17th century, however their observation is based on the Zablonski reference, and none of the material presented here seems to have been of any use to them. My invitation to openly use the material provided here over on the other forum was meant seriously, as I know my research is intended to be shared. Wouldn't it be amazing if those serious about weapons research could 'share' information without interfora politics ? I can recall efforts for years many years ago trying to accomplish that, resulting rather unfortunately in the response. I regret that Evgeny left, and as always saw that glimmer of hope. In any case, thank you all for your kind support here, you guys are great!!! All the best, Jim

18th September 2011, 10:45 PM	#4
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	I'm again here) Jim, I'm very grateful for your very detailed and informative answer! At one of Russian forums I've already heard that this is probably a Cossack's sword/saber. And interestingly enough, that this sword came to me from the Ukraine) I forgot to specify at the beginning, that the pommel (drop-shaped top) is still remained. I do not support reckless "restoration", so I'll try to be very gentle)

23rd September 2011, 06:09 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context. Which of the Osprey publications is this from? All best, Jim