16th Century German Staghorn Powderflasks

Atlantia · 11th September 2011, 03:00 PM

Hi Rick

What a beauty! Congrats indeed!!

Best
Gene

Matchlock · 11th September 2011, 06:08 PM

Hi Rick,

Fine piece indeed!

This sort of staghorn flasks was made from the 1530's to the 1580's in Nuremberg, Germany. The characteristic Nuremberg leafwork engraving identifies yours as truly Nuremberg made. It is datable to exactly 1570-75. There never are marks on these so please to not take anything off the authentic surface. Remember that originally, the iron mounts were not bright but blued or blackened in order to achieve a nice contrast to the white polished horn on the front; with authentic flasks, the rear is almost left in the original rough natural staghorn surface. Yours even retains its belt hook, so congratulations!

Most of this kind of staghorn flasks offered for sale nowadays - and even preserved in museums! - show later alterations to either the top vertical cutoff lever and its double arm spring plus removal of the belt hook, and/or the engraving is mere fantasy. It really takes a lot of stylistic experience to identify an original piece.

A small number of these flasks, usually the earliest of ca. 1540-50, were left in their original staghorn surface all over and were mostly meant for military use together with petronel matchlock arquebuses. We know an engraving by the Nuremberg artist Jost Amman of ca. 1560 showing that combination, with the staghorn flask attached to the belt of an arquebusier's back.

I include that engraving and an image of the five staghorn flasks in my collection, from left:
Nuremberg, military, original staghorn surface, ca. 1555, the iron showing remains of its original minium paint
The Tyrol or Bavaria, dated 1565 (from Christie's, 1990), with a rare ball reservoir
a very rare three-way flask, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, engaved in the late Gothic style
Nuremberg, identical pieces known dated 1572
Nuremberg, picturing a couple within Nuremberg leafwork, ca. 1580 (from Sotheby's, The Royal House of Hanover, 2005)
All of them retain their full mounts and belt hooks.

More details to follow.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 11th September 2011, 06:35 PM

Hi Rick,
It looks like this fascinating thing has two legs and is running over to my house

.

Matchlock · 11th September 2011, 06:45 PM

Hi 'Nando,

One of mine is even three-legged, so the choice is up to you!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 11th September 2011, 06:48 PM

Two way and three way staghorn flasks, Nurembeg, ca. 1570 and ca. 1540 (the left, the lower center iron cap missing, as well as the two cord rings from the top mount).

Matchlock · 11th September 2011, 06:59 PM

Two unusally fine variants, the first South Tyrol, ca. 1550. On this sample, even the back of the staghorn body is polished bright, as is the case with my flask dated 1565. The second completely of embossed and gilt brass, Augsburg, ca. 1560, the right lower mount containing a ball reservoir, the belt hook missing from the back.
Both preserved in the Victoria & Albert Museum London.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 11th September 2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

One of mine is even three-legged, so the choice is up to you!

Best,
Michl

The three legged one would run so fast that i (am afraid i) couldn't catch it when it passed by

.
... Just joking; the left one in post #7 would do fine

.

rickystl · 11th September 2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Rick,
It looks like this fascinating thing has two legs and is running over to my house

.

Hi Fernando!! I'm going to attach it to my belt so it can't move

rickystl · 11th September 2011, 08:43 PM

Hi Michael!! As usual, thank you so much for the outstanding information on this piece. WOW!! Even better than I expected. And, thanks for posting your wonderful collection and the additional photos, etc.
I won't touch the patina on mine. Don't know what I was thinking

Attached is a better photo of the head assembly. It's in perfect working order, with no parts missing.
Only one small problem: On the back of the belt hook was a very small pin that fit into a small hole in the staghorn to to keep the belt hook from moving back and fourth. Well, the pin broke off with the small piece still in the horn (see photo). It was this way when I bought it. I'm thinking of having the tiny piece of pin drilled out, and have a new pin soldered on where the old one was. The soldering won't show. I have the right guy that can do this, and I even have tiny pieces of iron pins that are 200+ years old that I can use. What do you think? Thanks again for your help. Rick.

Matchlock · 11th September 2011, 09:27 PM

Hi Rick,

There was not a pin but a screw thread soldered to the underside of the belt hook or made out of an iron pin rivited there. Of the two holes in the horn, I guess the upper was the original one. Just take out the top mount transverse screw and take off the belt hook and you should find the remains of the thread.
At the same time please screw off the side cord rings, take off the top mount and look inside whether the horizontally moving cut-off plate is still riveted there. You should also find greenspan from the copper soldering processs.
Was there ever powder in your flask?

Please take good images of the inside and show us! The outcome would be highly interesting.

Best,
Michael

rickystl · 12th September 2011, 01:40 AM

Hi Michael. Will do. I'll take it apart this week and report back. Yes, it should be very interesting. Rick.

11th September 2011, 06:08 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, Fine piece indeed! This sort of staghorn flasks was made from the 1530's to the 1580's in Nuremberg, Germany. The characteristic Nuremberg leafwork engraving identifies yours as truly Nuremberg made. It is datable to exactly 1570-75. There never are marks on these so please to not take anything off the authentic surface. Remember that originally, the iron mounts were not bright but blued or blackened in order to achieve a nice contrast to the white polished horn on the front; with authentic flasks, the rear is almost left in the original rough natural staghorn surface. Yours even retains its belt hook, so congratulations! Most of this kind of staghorn flasks offered for sale nowadays - and even preserved in museums! - show later alterations to either the top vertical cutoff lever and its double arm spring plus removal of the belt hook, and/or the engraving is mere fantasy. It really takes a lot of stylistic experience to identify an original piece. A small number of these flasks, usually the earliest of ca. 1540-50, were left in their original staghorn surface all over and were mostly meant for military use together with petronel matchlock arquebuses. We know an engraving by the Nuremberg artist Jost Amman of ca. 1560 showing that combination, with the staghorn flask attached to the belt of an arquebusier's back. I include that engraving and an image of the five staghorn flasks in my collection, from left: Nuremberg, military, original staghorn surface, ca. 1555, the iron showing remains of its original minium paint The Tyrol or Bavaria, dated 1565 (from Christie's, 1990), with a rare ball reservoir a very rare three-way flask, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, engaved in the late Gothic style Nuremberg, identical pieces known dated 1572 Nuremberg, picturing a couple within Nuremberg leafwork, ca. 1580 (from Sotheby's, The Royal House of Hanover, 2005) All of them retain their full mounts and belt hooks. More details to follow. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 11th September 2011 at 09:41 PM.

11th September 2011, 06:48 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two way and three way staghorn flasks, Nurembeg, ca. 1570 and ca. 1540 (the left, the lower center iron cap missing, as well as the two cord rings from the top mount). Attached Images

11th September 2011, 06:59 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two unusally fine variants, the first South Tyrol, ca. 1550. On this sample, even the back of the staghorn body is polished bright, as is the case with my flask dated 1565. The second completely of embossed and gilt brass, Augsburg, ca. 1560, the right lower mount containing a ball reservoir, the belt hook missing from the back. Both preserved in the Victoria & Albert Museum London. Best, Michael Attached Images

11th September 2011, 08:43 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Michael!! As usual, thank you so much for the outstanding information on this piece. WOW!! Even better than I expected. And, thanks for posting your wonderful collection and the additional photos, etc. I won't touch the patina on mine. Don't know what I was thinking Attached is a better photo of the head assembly. It's in perfect working order, with no parts missing. Only one small problem: On the back of the belt hook was a very small pin that fit into a small hole in the staghorn to to keep the belt hook from moving back and fourth. Well, the pin broke off with the small piece still in the horn (see photo). It was this way when I bought it. I'm thinking of having the tiny piece of pin drilled out, and have a new pin soldered on where the old one was. The soldering won't show. I have the right guy that can do this, and I even have tiny pieces of iron pins that are 200+ years old that I can use. What do you think? Thanks again for your help. Rick. Attached Images

11th September 2011, 09:27 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, There was not a pin but a screw thread soldered to the underside of the belt hook or made out of an iron pin rivited there. Of the two holes in the horn, I guess the upper was the original one. Just take out the top mount transverse screw and take off the belt hook and you should find the remains of the thread. At the same time please screw off the side cord rings, take off the top mount and look inside whether the horizontally moving cut-off plate is still riveted there. You should also find greenspan from the copper soldering processs. Was there ever powder in your flask? Please take good images of the inside and show us! The outcome would be highly interesting. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 11th September 2011 at 09:39 PM.

11th September 2011, 03:00 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Rick What a beauty! Congrats indeed!! Best Gene

11th September 2011, 06:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rick, It looks like this fascinating thing has two legs and is running over to my house .

11th September 2011, 06:45 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, One of mine is even three-legged, so the choice is up to you! Best, Michl

12th September 2011, 01:40 AM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Michael. Will do. I'll take it apart this week and report back. Yes, it should be very interesting. Rick.