Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

fernando · 6th September 2011, 02:15 PM

Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting

.

Evgeny_K · 6th September 2011, 03:55 PM

Yes, it's marking.
But I didn't clean it yet.

Evgeny_K · 6th September 2011, 03:57 PM

...

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2011, 09:42 PM

Evgeny, first of all may I implore you to use much restraint in cleaning this extremely important sabre!

This weapon corresponds to sabres discussed some years ago in studies of the 'L-guard' hilt which apparantly may have evolved in early 17th century Eastern Europe from Italian hilts with similar feature in 15th into 16th centuries and quite probably other sources.
The site of the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine was excavated in the 1970s and documented in an article in 'Muzealnictwo Wojskowe' (Tome 5, 1992) : "Battle of Beretschko in 1651 in Light of Historical and Archaeological Sources" by Igor Svieschnokov.
During the Chmielnicki Uprising in 1651, Ukrainian Cossacks clashed with Polish forces, and this particular site among several thousand artifacts were some 32 sabres, many similar but three with this distinctive L guard. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.212) a Polish sabre with this feature is shown, and it should be noted that the thumb ring is seen on the 'Beretschko' examples. It appears that the hilt was in use in Poland sometime in the early 17th century.

The mention of these examples from this battle simply illustrates the form in use c.1651 in Eastern Europe, there are similar Austrian examples from later in the 17th century.

What is key here is the deeply stamped cartouche near the langet on the blade, which appears to carry possible Islamic script or characters. It is known that allied with the Ukrainian Cossacks were some Tatars and Turks.
In discussion of Ottoman blades of these times it does seem that stamping of blade with deep circular cartouche was known in certain cases on one side only, possibly arsenal ? It is indeed possible that an Ottoman blade might have been in a Polish sabre of the time, or that similar hilts may have been in use by the Cossacks with Turkish blade.

In discussions I have been told that Cossacks used various types of swords which included Polish types as well as Eastern (incl. Ottoman) forms, but there a few actual examples of these Ukrainian swords (except the Berestschko find). Most are the result of repairs and refurbishing which accounts for certain amalgamations rather than congruent patterns.

With this it is compelling to suggest that this may be an L guard of Eastern European form of the first half 17th century with possible associations to the Ukrainian Cossacks.

With that I would include the distinct possibility that this stamped cartouche could be a tamga, family marking used by Lithuanian Tatars, though that is a remote option. Tamgas are rarely seen on weapons to the best of my knowledge, but the Lithuanians were a large component among the Zaporozhian Cossacks, and I thought it worthy of note.

I note that you have posted this sword on another forum as well. While anticipating response there, please feel free to share any of this information with them so that they might add it to thier notes.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2011, 03:55 PM

Addendum:
Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period.
Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars.
This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however.

Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal.

Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski .

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2011, 06:21 PM

Interesting, and disappointing.
Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' apparantly chose to post his sabre here despite already being active on another forum. While I know there are a number of members out there quite well versed on these Eastern European swords, nobody bothered to add even the ever popular 'Facebook' blurbs.....yet Fernando offered courteous welcome.
With no response Evgeny returned to the other forum to post, which resulted in a whole two empty single line responses, the thread ended.

Disappointed that there were no responses here, I sought to retrace as much old information and notes as I could find to compile a worthwhile response, hoping I might be able to offer some help. I always enjoy these kinds of posts personally as I learn going through old notes and recompiling data with new context. I post the results here to share my findings, as always to continue what I have always believed is the goal here..to learn together.

I have noticed mention in a number of threads and private messages that there seems to be a lack of interest which has extended to regularly posting members and beyond the usual lurking, though the number of views appear to reflect that activity maintaining well.

I had hoped the material I presented would prove helpful to Evgeny, and as always, I am pleased to know that perhaps others find it useful as well. I also always hope that it will promote or inspire others to add material they might have or share other examples. I just wanted to express these notes on this apparantly notable condition here which I hope will improve, and I truly encourage those of you out there reading to join in. I believe collecting should include research, and teamwork and participation in discussions are rewarding and beneficial to all.

Thanks for listening,
Jim

P.S. Jeff, I just saw your post on the other thread on the ethno side, my apologies for not noting your participation ...oops!!

fernando · 14th September 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Interesting, and disappointing.
Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' ...

There are those who like to re-enact Elvis

.
Obviously Jim, your precious posts will be a benefit to members in general; no time waisted ... never

.

cornelistromp · 14th September 2011, 07:22 PM

Jim,
I always read with delight your expert articles, I do not believe that a further contribution of Eugene is needed.
Here at least one specimen from the late 16th early 17thC.

best,

Evgeny_K · 16th April 2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting

.

Gentelmen,
I would appreciate for any help in identifying this mark

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th April 2012, 08:55 AM

Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I am very impressed with the result so far. This is highly specialised and advanced stuff... Now you have the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? ) What is your programme of restoration for hilt and scabbard. Astonishing results so far...

I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex .

Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please?

Thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ps The stamp is upside down I think.

Evgeny_K · 17th April 2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? )

Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).

ariel · 17th April 2012, 07:15 PM

Evgeny,

Great job.

Let's not forget the way this saber looked like when it came to you: it was a deformed lump of rusty metal. No amount of "gentle" cleaning would have recovered even a trace of what it was supposed to be, or prevent any further degradation.

To be honest: the historic and artistic value of this ( or any other) sword pales in comparison to Sistine Chapel.
http://msopal29.myweb.uga.edu/BeforeandAfter.html

If works of Michelangelo and Botticelli could be aggressively restored and conserved, a similar approach to a sword is fully justified.

Evgeny_K · 17th April 2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).

"Reanimation"

of the excavated French m1777 infantry rifle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooH1P...0tqoEJXeOKw3E=

ariel · 18th April 2012, 09:41 AM

I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration.
Now, the question.

Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable?

Evgeny_K · 18th April 2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration.
Now, the question.

Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable?

I think that this method can be applied to objects that are in very poor condition. In my case, a sword has not lost springiness (I'm not going to use a sword for cutting). The surface is dull because of usage of molten paraffin (for conservation).

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th April 2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).

Salaams Evgeny_K... ~ I see... and I saw your video clip... great demonstration with your furnace... Now I understand the process. I agree with Ariel on the amazing work in this area on swords etc. that are essentially rusted and beyond normal repair and restoration. This is also demonstrated in the rusted weapon you excavated and show on your other video... I wonder if the blade can in any way be polished at this stage as you say it is drenched in preservative so it looks dull... hardly surprising ! So will the blade be able to be polished ?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Evgeny_K · 18th April 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Evgeny_K... ~ I see... and I saw your video clip... great demonstration with your furnace... Now I understand the process. I agree with Ariel on the amazing work in this area on swords etc. that are essentially rusted and beyond normal repair and restoration. This is also demonstrated in the rusted weapon you excavated and show on your other video... I wonder if the blade can in any way be polished at this stage as you say it is drenched in preservative so it looks dull... hardly surprising ! So will the blade be able to be polished ?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,
It's not mine video. I've asked for the help with my sword the man, who use this method (he's on video).

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th April 2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Ibrahiim,
It's not mine video. I've asked for the help with my sword the man, who use this method (he's on video).

Salaams Evgeny_K Yes ok... Can the blade be polished up? I see that it has preservative on it... but will it be possible to polish the blade later...

Salaams Fernando ~ Thank you very much !!

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 18th April 2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex .

Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please?

Thank you.

Done.

6th September 2011, 02:15 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is that a mark on the blade? Can you get a close up picture? Marks are always interesting . Attached Images

6th September 2011, 03:55 PM	#2
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	Yes, it's marking. But I didn't clean it yet. Attached Images

6th September 2011, 03:57 PM	#3
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	... Last edited by Evgeny_K; 6th September 2011 at 10:35 PM.

11th September 2011, 09:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Evgeny, first of all may I implore you to use much restraint in cleaning this extremely important sabre! This weapon corresponds to sabres discussed some years ago in studies of the 'L-guard' hilt which apparantly may have evolved in early 17th century Eastern Europe from Italian hilts with similar feature in 15th into 16th centuries and quite probably other sources. The site of the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine was excavated in the 1970s and documented in an article in 'Muzealnictwo Wojskowe' (Tome 5, 1992) : "Battle of Beretschko in 1651 in Light of Historical and Archaeological Sources" by Igor Svieschnokov. During the Chmielnicki Uprising in 1651, Ukrainian Cossacks clashed with Polish forces, and this particular site among several thousand artifacts were some 32 sabres, many similar but three with this distinctive L guard. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.212) a Polish sabre with this feature is shown, and it should be noted that the thumb ring is seen on the 'Beretschko' examples. It appears that the hilt was in use in Poland sometime in the early 17th century. The mention of these examples from this battle simply illustrates the form in use c.1651 in Eastern Europe, there are similar Austrian examples from later in the 17th century. What is key here is the deeply stamped cartouche near the langet on the blade, which appears to carry possible Islamic script or characters. It is known that allied with the Ukrainian Cossacks were some Tatars and Turks. In discussion of Ottoman blades of these times it does seem that stamping of blade with deep circular cartouche was known in certain cases on one side only, possibly arsenal ? It is indeed possible that an Ottoman blade might have been in a Polish sabre of the time, or that similar hilts may have been in use by the Cossacks with Turkish blade. In discussions I have been told that Cossacks used various types of swords which included Polish types as well as Eastern (incl. Ottoman) forms, but there a few actual examples of these Ukrainian swords (except the Berestschko find). Most are the result of repairs and refurbishing which accounts for certain amalgamations rather than congruent patterns. With this it is compelling to suggest that this may be an L guard of Eastern European form of the first half 17th century with possible associations to the Ukrainian Cossacks. With that I would include the distinct possibility that this stamped cartouche could be a tamga, family marking used by Lithuanian Tatars, though that is a remote option. Tamgas are rarely seen on weapons to the best of my knowledge, but the Lithuanians were a large component among the Zaporozhian Cossacks, and I thought it worthy of note. I note that you have posted this sword on another forum as well. While anticipating response there, please feel free to share any of this information with them so that they might add it to thier notes. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th September 2011 at 09:54 PM.

12th September 2011, 03:55 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Addendum: Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period. Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars. This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however. Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal. Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski . Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th September 2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: add scans such as they are :)

14th September 2011, 06:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Interesting, and disappointing. Evgeny, who appears to have 'left the building' apparantly chose to post his sabre here despite already being active on another forum. While I know there are a number of members out there quite well versed on these Eastern European swords, nobody bothered to add even the ever popular 'Facebook' blurbs.....yet Fernando offered courteous welcome. With no response Evgeny returned to the other forum to post, which resulted in a whole two empty single line responses, the thread ended. Disappointed that there were no responses here, I sought to retrace as much old information and notes as I could find to compile a worthwhile response, hoping I might be able to offer some help. I always enjoy these kinds of posts personally as I learn going through old notes and recompiling data with new context. I post the results here to share my findings, as always to continue what I have always believed is the goal here..to learn together. I have noticed mention in a number of threads and private messages that there seems to be a lack of interest which has extended to regularly posting members and beyond the usual lurking, though the number of views appear to reflect that activity maintaining well. I had hoped the material I presented would prove helpful to Evgeny, and as always, I am pleased to know that perhaps others find it useful as well. I also always hope that it will promote or inspire others to add material they might have or share other examples. I just wanted to express these notes on this apparantly notable condition here which I hope will improve, and I truly encourage those of you out there reading to join in. I believe collecting should include research, and teamwork and participation in discussions are rewarding and beneficial to all. Thanks for listening, Jim P.S. Jeff, I just saw your post on the other thread on the ethno side, my apologies for not noting your participation ...oops!! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th September 2011 at 04:22 AM. Reason: add note to Jeff

14th September 2011, 07:22 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Jim, I always read with delight your expert articles, I do not believe that a further contribution of Eugene is needed. Here at least one specimen from the late 16th early 17thC. best, Attached Images

17th April 2012, 08:55 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I am very impressed with the result so far. This is highly specialised and advanced stuff... Now you have the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? ) What is your programme of restoration for hilt and scabbard. Astonishing results so far... I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex . Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please? Thank you. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. ps The stamp is upside down I think. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th April 2012 at 09:39 AM.

17th April 2012, 07:15 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Evgeny, Great job. Let's not forget the way this saber looked like when it came to you: it was a deformed lump of rusty metal. No amount of "gentle" cleaning would have recovered even a trace of what it was supposed to be, or prevent any further degradation. To be honest: the historic and artistic value of this ( or any other) sword pales in comparison to Sistine Chapel. http://msopal29.myweb.uga.edu/BeforeandAfter.html If works of Michelangelo and Botticelli could be aggressively restored and conserved, a similar approach to a sword is fully justified.

18th April 2012, 09:41 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration. Now, the question. Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable?