2 swords for ID please.

[katana]

Trying to find the significance of the 5 balled knuckleguard .....I found on Wiki ( ) that this design feature ...." popularity lasted from 1790 to until about 1820 when it was no longer produced " If true it helps date this sword.
I also read that this ball feature is more common on Infantry swords.........stylised musket balls ??

Kind Regards David

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by katana

Trying to find the significance of the 5 balled knuckleguard .....I found on Wiki ( ) that this design feature ...." popularity lasted from 1790 to until about 1820 when it was no longer produced " If true it helps date this sword.
I also read that this ball feature is more common on Infantry swords.........stylised musket balls ??

Kind Regards David

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10330

I prefer beaded as a terminology and more apt for a lot of hilts. It might make more sense to continue that old thread than add it to this one but here are some more cause to pause. They are not just found on infantry swords but the spadroons probably most recognized. Artillery, naval examples as well. I have pretty much summed up my thoughts there but would point out that Wiki articles are really no more than a start and much more information can be found in dealer listings as well as books.

Musket balls you say A hilt that has just two and one with more of the stylings. The other French sabre I posted is also beaded, imo.

Someone that could produce the first use of the term five ball might warrant a
meritorious certificate of rightness

Cheers

GC

[katana]

Thanks Glen,
my knowledge in these types of sword is, shall we say, limited I suppose musket/cannon ball symbolism is possibly unlikely ..but possible....I cannot find any reference to a definitive explaination for the 'beaded' design ....or why there tend to be 5 (3 & 7 much less so, but interestingly all 'odd' numbers, whether or not that is significant ... I do not know )

Kind Regards David

[Hotspur]

How odd ?8^)~ There are just two in the one I posted above.

[katana]

Hi Glen,
Sorry for the late reply.
My main area of collecting is ethnographic ....where decorative elements are often symbolic or talismatic. These decorative features often aid dating, origins etc and subtle differences can equate to a difference of many years or origins a thousand mile apart.

The hilt with the 'disc' shaped sections of the knucklebow and the other with the elongated 'bead' with a ball at either end, which you mentioned are not even subtly different to the usual 5 'balled' or 'beaded' decoration that I am refering to.....so agreed 'odd'.

My question was about the decorative (or symbolic) grouped 'beaded' design, usually 5 in a row .....either with beads of equal size or those which graduate in size ie smaller at the ends, increasing in size to the middle. This design seems to have travelled to a number of countries....some of which were enemies. To my mind this suggests some symbolic, talismatic or religious meaning.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Continuing the possibillity of a religious meaning to the 5 beaded design....

The basic 'unit' of the Rosary is 5 .....simplistic ...but beads and 5

I am sure there are many possible interpretations , assuming there is one at all. If originally symbolic perhaps the meaning later 'forgotten' and later designs 'just based' on the earlier one

[Hotspur]

Hi David

It is not my call but I did link the other discussion regarding the hilts. I have pretty much said my say of own perspective on the matter and would defer to that other thread.

As the two swords in this particular thread had been the original focus and Jim had regarded the sidebars of deserving of another topic, maybe your thoughts about hilts and sword decoration in general deserve a separate thread or response and input to the other linked thread.

Cheers

GC